Cyprus-Forum.com

[cypezokyli]

vp wrote:

The 1960 agreements are a prime example of a community that entered into an agreement knowing full well they were not going to stick to it from the outset which in my book is unexplainable and treacherous

what book?
serious now
watch all modern democracies. perhaps with exception of england all democracies or independant states, were not mature enough to understand what is going on and try to do the best of what was given to them. almost all first attempts have failed, and it took a lot of blood ,especially in europe to gain the maturity of running a country after they got rid of the kings.

its normal. it happens. and i am sorry
but unlike you, i really believe people can change.
i really believe that it is possible.
the fact that we tried once and failed does not mean that we shouldnt try again.
actually now we have the experience of the past and we will (hopefully) avoid in doing the same mistakes.
in a way we have to digest that if we want one united country we should accept that we will share the power with the tc.
the tcs will have to accept that the easiest and fastest way to lift the isolation is a state with the gcs.

GCs in general have this automatic reaction of blaming negative results on everyone under the sun except themselves, you need to look towards your own leaders for many of the results of today

on this i tottally agree with you
yet, i guess it is a generall cypriot attitude

The refugess are the real Cypriots who have paid the price of our actions which have led us to the current situation, they can only be compensated via a comprehensive solution which is nowhere in sight

indeed they are paying the price
indeed there is no comprehensive solution in sight
i still hope that a big number as possible can return even after a comprehensive solution. it can be done. alexandors has posted some alternatives like that.

That is the mentality you were raised with, take your own food and dont spend anything in the north to help their economy, but what did TCs quite the opposite, this is another indication of the difference between our communities

it seems u skipped the part where i said i have changed
indeed thats how we were raised
but let me tell u that i changed, only when i met some tcs.
so it is also up to you to destroy the stereotype that we have for you.
and if u really try perhaps u will realise that the gcs are not so bad as u imagine them

Let me put it as a question what do you think TCs need to see or experience in order to change their viewpoint about living and working with GCs in a united Cyprus????

u r the tc
why dont u tell me
i tried to open a thread and asked what should be done to build trust.
the first person that i expected an answer was vp.
u say all the time there is a trust problem
i dont have any. i trust you
its not enough my friend to spot the problem. u have also to propose some more practical solutions to the problem.

[Kifeas]

i dont know how else i can explai it kifeas.
let me try this way.

if u did sth to me, and as a concequence i come at your place in paphos kick you out and take your property, and then argue its mine what can u do (always legally)?

As far as I am concerened I did nothing to anybody before I was kicked out of my house, property and my homeland in the north. Did you do something? If yes then tell us what you did! If not then stop usuing such pathetic arguments!

u can call the police.
u can take me to court
the court is going to decide according to the laws the parliament has voted
then if the court decides you r right i have to give you back everything i took away
and if i refuse, then u can call the police and i will go to prison.
very nice story.

in inernational politics that doesnot hold.
there are some laws, not binding (with no parliament)
There are plenty of binding laws and turkey co-signed the abidance and respect of all them. Both the Chart of the UN and the all protocols of the Council of Europe for the respect and protection of Human rights.
there are some courts (with no power)
there is no police

titina loizidou won the case against turkey in ECHR didnt she?
the orgnisation we hoped for a solution decided that some refugees could return and some not
rightly or wrong, the decision of the court was simply forgotten
the examples can go for ever
The decision of the court was not forgotten at all and the court made Turkey to pay all the sum of money that Turkey was condemned to pay and by the end of this year Turkey has agreed and is supposed to return her property in Kyrenia back to her.


ofcource legally we have right
ofcource the reality is different
there is no police to call
the turkish army is hier
and the way i see it is, too much legal point of view on the subject is the recipee for no solution.

legality and reality
such a big difference

Then what do you suggest we do? Resign from our rights and gift all our properties and homeland to the thieves because enforcement is very difficult? Accept to get 1 or 2 out of the 10 that have been stolen, sign out the rest and shut up?

[cypezokyli]

As far as I am concerened I did nothing to anybody before I was kicked out of my house, property and my homeland in the north. Did you do something? If yes then tell us what you did! If not then stop usuing such pathetic arguments!

i was born in 1982
i hope that answers your question
my point was that legality inside a country is different on an international level. there is no police to call.

There are plenty of binding laws and turkey co-signed the abidance and respect of all them. Both the Chart of the UN and the all protocols of the Council of Europe for the respect and protection of Human rights.

does she follow them?
if not what are the consequences?

The decision of the court was not forgotten at all and the court made Turkey to pay all the sum of money that Turkey was condemned to pay and by the end of this year Turkey has agreed and is supposed to return her property in Kyrenia back to her.

indeed suppossed to...

Then what do you suggest we do? Resign from our rights and gift all our properties and homeland to the thieves because enforcement is very difficult? Accept to get 1 or 2 out of the 10 that have been stolen, sign out the rest and shut up?

would 7 or 8 satisfy you?

[Viewpoint]

i dont know how else i can explai it kifeas.
let me try this way.

if u did sth to me, and as a concequence i come at your place in paphos kick you out and take your property, and then argue its mine what can u do (always legally)?
u can call the police.
u can take me to court
the court is going to decide according to the laws the parliament has voted
then if the court decides you r right i have to give you back everything i took away
and if i refuse, then u can call the police and i will go to prison.
very nice story.

in inernational politics that doesnot hold.
there are some laws, not binding (with no parliament)
there are some courts (with no power)
there is no police

titina loizidou won the case against turkey in ECHR didnt she?
the orgnisation we hoped for a solution decided that some refugees could return and some not
rightly or wrong, the decision of the court was simply forgotten
the examples can go for ever

ofcource legally we have right
ofcource the reality is different
there is no police to call
the turkish army is hier
and the way i see it is, too much legal point of view on the subject is the recipee for no solution.

legality and reality
such a big difference

Very well said cypezokyli, It is very refreshing to hear such logic from the younger generation GC, you have made my day.

[cypezokyli]

that posts was directed to kifeas, vp

i still wait some proposals and answers from you

[Viewpoint]

cypezokyli

but unlike you, i really believe people can change.
i really believe that it is possible.
the fact that we tried once and failed does not mean that we shouldnt try again.
actually now we have the experience of the past and we will (hopefully) avoid in doing the same mistakes.
in a way we have to digest that if we want one united country we should accept that we will share the power with the tc.
the tcs will have to accept that the easiest and fastest way to lift the isolation is a state with the gcs.

I applaud your optimism, which I would very much like to share but our attempt at trying again was the Annan plan and we all know how that ended up.

i still hope that a big number as possible can return even after a comprehensive solution. it can be done. alexandors has posted some alternatives like that.

I agree with you totally.

it seems u skipped the part where i said i have changed
indeed thats how we were raised
but let me tell u that i changed, only when i met some tcs.
so it is also up to you to destroy the stereotype that we have for you.
and if u really try perhaps u will realise that the gcs are not so bad as u imagine them

I have no problems with GCs on a one to one basis, what I do have a problem with is the arrogance and we are always right attitude of their administration, this will be their downfall in the EU, they have very limited allies and they will be used by those with their own agendas which will leave the Cyprus issue unsolvable, the EU couldnt even issue a counter declaration in over 50 dayshow on earth do you expect them to solve anything, thank god they refer us back to the UN.

u r the tc
why dont u tell me
i tried to open a thread and asked what should be done to build trust.
the first person that i expected an answer was vp.
u say all the time there is a trust problem
i dont have any. i trust you
its not enough my friend to spot the problem. u have also to propose some more practical solutions to the problem.

I want concrete steps taken by Gcs administration,

1.They should invite Talat to regular meetings to talk about TCs and GCs concerns in relation to Annan plan and what needs to done to make it acceptable to both sides.

2.The Economy in the north should be encouraged to stand on its own 2 feet avoiding the sensative area of GCs personal property thus addressing GC concerns. The isloation on the north has to be relaxed to kick start the economy. This would enable Tcs to move away from depending on Turkey so much and thus make TCs more independent of its mother and closer to its brother, believe me this would benefit GCs immensly.

3.The 2 communites should work together on the rehousing of areas to be returned to GC administration and Maras/Varosha projects.

4.The missing persons issue should be resolved tomorrow no more bullshiting from either side.

5.TCs have to be allowed to represent themselves in the international community. This can be together with GCs and independently.

6. of course a solution should be found to address all concerns but the steps above would help bring the communities closer together and generate a more positive feel of TCs and GCs towards each other.

7.To address many of the issues I would engage experts from both sides that would work together on how best to move forward and identify what needs to be done to resolve issues.

8. I would also get equivelent government departments working together on common policies and principles so that if we unite it will be achievable more smoothly and without caos.

These are just a few that spring to mind but the bottom line is that we must meet and work together on a regular basis to solve our own issues and dialogue is the key which we do not currently have.

[Viewpoint]

that posts was directed to kifeas, vp

i still wait some proposals and answers from you

I was paying you a compliment cypezokyli, I know you will face the wrath of certain GCs members but I dont feel I warranted the above response..

[cypezokyli]

u know viewpoint this seems one of the constructive days in this forum.
at some other thread piratis also accepted that tcs would get more rights than the 1960s.

sometimes i think that we are just re-chewing the bullshit of our politicians.
its really nice that finally we got some constractive ideas.

therefore:

1.They should invite Talat to regular meetings to talk about TCs and GCs concerns in relation to Annan plan and what needs to done to make it acceptable to both sides.

agree. on that i do blame tassos myself as well

2.The Economy in the north should be encouraged to stand on its own 2 feet avoiding the sensative area of GCs personal property thus addressing GC concerns. The isloation on the north has to be relaxed to kick start the economy. This would enable Tcs to move away from depending on Turkey so much and thus make TCs more independent of its mother and closer to its brother, believe me this would benefit GCs immensly

are you sure u r pro-partition vp?
agreed

3.The 2 communites should work together on the rehousing of areas to be returned to GC administration and Maras/Varosha projects

agreed

.The missing persons issue should be resolved tomorrow no more bullshiting from either side.

really important. absolutely agreed

5.TCs have to be allowed to represent themselves in the international community. This can be together with GCs and independently.

for first stage, the together seems more likely
i am not sure how far we could accept u intpendatly that without a solution.

6. of course a solution should be found to address all concerns but the steps above would help bring the communities closer together and generate a more positive feel of TCs and GCs towards each other.

agree

7.To address many of the issues I would engage experts from both sides that would work together on how best to move forward and identify what needs to be done to resolve issues.

it is getting tired to agree with you vp

8. I would also get equivelent government departments working together on common policies and principles so that if we unite it will be achievable more smoothly and without caos.

why didnt u just say all that earlier?

i would say all points seem quite constractive.
the only thing that i believe is impossible before the solution is the lifting of the embargo. thats from a political point of view the only thing we have to put you on the table. its bad but i guess you understand. otherwise...
absolutely agree.

see, its not that difficult!!!

[cypezokyli]

I was paying you a compliment cypezokyli. know you will face the wrath of certain GCs members but I dont feel I warranted the above response..

thanks
and sorry...

i would prefer that some more gc actually say their opinions about your proposals rather than mine.

can u imagine u and kifeas agreeing in 8 points in a row?

[Viewpoint]

cypezokyli

why didnt u just say all that earlier?

i would say all points seem quite constractive.
the only thing that i believe is impossible before the solution is the lifting of the embargo. thats from a political point of view the only thing we have to put you on the table. its bad but i guess you understand. otherwise...
absolutely agree.

see, its not that difficult!!!

I have aired some of ideas before but they were either shot down or not understood or even dismissed by GCs who didnt really want to take the time to understand them.

If the economy in the north is to improve drastically then the isolation has to be gradually eased, this can be done in many ways, if there is the will then there is always a way, the will is not evident.
If other areas of economic growth were encouraged by GCs and diverted away from construction this in turn would help elivate GC concerns, but many GCs are unable to see this.
The automatically assume that the north will prosper and no longer desire a solution with GCs, dont the Gcs realize that this mindset is geared to keeping TCs economically hostage which we will only resent and therefore fuel a go it alone mentality in TCs.

Everyone makes me out to be this partition hardliner, when you consider I voted yes for the Annan plan which I thought was really the solution for I had never seen TCs to active in bringing about the YES only to have it slapped resoundingly in our faces, this brought home the cold reality that we Cypriots are doomed and incapable of reaching a settlement that both sides will commit to and since the referendum the developments have proved me right. So that is why I feel that recognized partition for return of land will be the only solution where it will be clean cut and we can do what we want in our own parts of north and south Cyprus without looking over our shoulders all the time.

can u imagine u and kifeas agreeing in 8 points in a row?

Never in a million years, Kifeas doesnt value or agree with anything I have to say because he relates everything to property/land first, he would rip to shreds the 8 points in his condensending manner, whereas I am more security and safety orientated.