Cyprus-Forum.com

[Azeroglu]

Thanks Nikiforos...you made me realize how much I am wasting my time on this forum, spending so much time online saying white white white, and having Greeks say black black black.....it can go on forever...So why don't you all go on saying what you've got to say....you don't need me as an audience....rehash the same arguments over and over again...as if it all came from Greek Talk Central...and since this Forum is a nerve center for Greek nationalism, and furthering the Greek agenda, rather than mutual understanding, I really should take the Moderator's advice and say little...because it's useless...you won't change my mind, and I won't change yours...there will be no convergence or meeting of minds, and your version of history will always be different than ours....

Now as to me loving my Turkic identity more than my faith, sorry, that is not true...when the large mosaic from the apse of the Panagia Kanakaria in the village of Lythrankonu in the North was stolen by Turkish art dealer Aydin Dikman and sold to Jewish art dealer Peg Goldberg, I posted a message on a Turkish Cypriot forum about it, expressing my dissatisfaction. Not that it would change my support of the TRNC of course. Why...?

Did I tell you what this Palestinian woman from Ramallah who was going back home via Amman, and who was on my Cyprus Airways Larnaca-Amman flight told me? "I always thought there was nothing stronger than the animosity between us and the Jews, until I heard Greek Cypriots talk about Turks".

Of course it did not surprise me, since I was waiting for that old green bus that runs from Larnaca International Airport to Lefkosia (your side) one time, and a Greek Cypriot standing next to me waiting for his ride who had just arrived from London, began making disparaging remarks about Turks. I was on Greek territory, so I held my tongue. But it made me believe in Denktas, more and more and more.

If I ever got to get inside of the Greek mentality I sure did it on this forum...Now I know the true feelings behind the masks...

You still haven't been able to answer why the Greek bishop of Kyrenia, the late Makarios, would become a politician in violation of Orthodox Church Law. And to become a nationalist at that. But I will not speak ill of him...he is an Orthodox Christian resting in peace.

I have gained much insight into how Greeks who are Hellenists perceive Turks. This forum has not only helped me discover that, it has convinced me even more that co-existence in a united Cyprus is not an option, and never will be. It is a recipe for disaster.

[ARMENIAN CYPRIOT]

There were no Malta Tribunals. Those were detention camps for future war crime trials. The British traded them for British hostages held by the Turks. P S didnt the Turkish military Tribunal find the Young Turks Gulity??
I guess your not taught that in your Turkish history books.

[Nikiforos]

The LATE ANNAN Plan (dead and buried) was very unbalanced and lead to the rejection by the GC's. The US and Britain tried to impose their will and FAILED MISERABLY. They may have felt that the harder side to convince was the TC side. Therefore, they granted all of Turkey's demands. I say Turkey and not TC because the TC's do everything that Turkey demands. The Turks even sidelined old Rauf Denktash when he no longer was useful to their plans. The bottom line is that the US and Britain seriously miscalculated the GC reaction. On the other hand, maybe they planned it that way.

Annan is totally discredited in the eyes of most GC's. He is incompetent and perhaps criminal in his mishandling of UN affairs. He is a dupe of the Americans and British.

Cosmetic changes to the Annan plan will not convince a majority of GC's to vote yes. The situation is likely to continue as is for the forseeable future. At some point in the accession negotiations, Turkey will have to decide if it is willing to sacrifice its own aspirations to those of the TC's.

[ARMENIAN CYPRIOT]

The LATE ANNAN Plan (dead and buried) was very unbalanced and lead to the rejection by the GC's. The US and Britain tried to impose their will and FAILED MISERABLY. They may have felt that the harder side to convince was the TC side. Therefore, they granted all of Turkey's demands. I say Turkey and not TC because the TC's do everything that Turkey demands. The Turks even sidelined old Rauf Denktash when he no longer was useful to their plans. The bottom line is that the US and Britain seriously miscalculated the GC reaction. On the other hand, maybe they planned it that way.

Annan is totally discredited in the eyes of most GC's. He is incompetent and perhaps criminal in his mishandling of UN affairs. He is a dupe of the Americans and British.

Cosmetic changes to the Annan plan will not convince a majority of GC's to vote yes. The situation is likely to continue as is for the forseeable future. At some point in the accession negotiations, Turkey will have to decide if it is willing to sacrifice its own aspirations to those of the TC's.

The problem was that the Brits believed that us Armenian, Greek and Maronites would have accepted any pitiful deal that they put on the plate. I for one will never vote for any plan that gives the TC community more then 18% of are island. After that I can careless if they want to become independent. I for one dont wish to pay taxes to improve the living conditions of that area.

[Azeroglu]

Nikiforos...I forgot to answer your question...my parents did not have an Orthodox wedding...my father would not convert....my mother would have loved to have a wedding with all the ceremonies that go with her faith, and the stefanadikia, the candles.... the beauty that is part of an Orthodox wedding was missing...technically they were not married in the eyes of the Church, and my mother was not able to receive Communion..she is now divorced but religion was not the entire issue...

My brother married a Turkish woman from Istanbul (of Circassian origin but Turkish) and now he cannot receive Communion either, since his marriage was performed by a Justice of the Peace...same problem...

She will not convert either, but like many Turks, especially from Istanbul she is not a very conservative Muslim.

Currently my brother can attend the Divine Liturgy, but cannot even take antidoron since he is living in sin according to our Church.

As much as you will find this hard to believe I would have preferred that he married a Greek woman so we would not have this problem. In spite of his marriage to a Turkish woman, he tends to be more on the side of Greek Cypriots and even Armenians which would give my father a heart attack.

I dislike Armenian attitudes...they have all the privileges in Iran, yet they continue to be clannish...did you know that almost all the airline ticket offices that represent foreign airlines such as Air France and British Airways as well as the receptionists at foreign embassies in Tehran are Armenian, and that they refuse to allow any non-Armenian break into their fiefdom when it comes to employment in these areas? My father is an Azeri from Iran, not the Republic of Azerbaijan, and he grew up with Armenian friends in Tehran...he feels no hostility towards Armenians, and I do not either, but neither one of us will agree to Qarabag being Armenian Artsakh...did you know that Armenia even occupied the Lacin Corridor that had no Armenians, only to create territorial contiguity between Qarabag and Armenia proper, and that Armenia now claims Nakhichevan as well? Fellow Christians they may be, but their two most notorious terrorist organizations ASALA and Dashnak (Tashnak) have murdered many Azeris (not to mention over 40 Turkish diplomats).

I would like my brother to read the posts and see for himself how Turks are portrayed and talked about...maybe it'll change his mind...but then maybe not...it sure has reinforced my beliefs in separation and divorce in Cyprus.

But then Nikoforos...I am now thinking...why am I wasting my time trying to convince those I cannot convince to think my way? Hence I am thinking of not posting anymore on this forum...It will also make Piratis and the other Greek guy who goes by Armenian Cypriot celebrate....it is a Greek forum after all, and the floor is yours...So my message to everybody here is, go for it, knock yourself out...Greek forum, Greek opinions...why should I interfere?

My time should be spent reading the Lives of the Saints and in prayer....

[Nikiforos]

Azeroglu,

It is unfortunate that you may leave this forum. But before you go, please note: The GC's and GREECE share blame in the Cyprus tragedy. Sampson was a criminal and a murderer.

The hatred toward Turkey is because of its ongoing military occupation of Cyprus. NO MATTER HOW ONE LOOKS AT IT, TURKEY IS NOT ACTING AS A GUARANTOR NOW BUT AS AN OCCUPYING POWER.

Pending a solution, why not demilitarize the island. Remove ALL Greek and Turkish troops. Disarm the TC's AND GC's. Disband the National Guard. Increase the numbers of international troops to patrol the Green Line. The money saved by the Greeks and Turks by removing their forces and demilitarizing the island could pay for the foreign troops.

One cannot look at Cyprus without taking into account how Turkey addresses the issue of the Armenian Genocide, the Ecumenical Patriarchate, etc. The West has been fortunate to have Greece as a buffer between itself and Turkey. If another nation (Protestant or Roman Catholic) had bordered Turkey instead of Greece, I suspect that the West would NOT have been this patient with Turkey.

[BirKibrisli]

Azeroglu,guzel kardashim,

First let me thank you for your compliment re my intelligence.But you are wrong to think I am a Greek Cypriot masquerading as a Turkish Cypriot.
There are enough very intelligent GCs in this forum able to argue for their side,they don't need me.

But had I been born a few kilometres away I would've been a Greek Cypriot,my birth is just an accident of nature.But I hope that had I been born a GC and has to immigrate to Australia after the troubles in Cyprus,and were taken in by a Turkish family and treated as a son,I would feel the same as I do now about seeing the people of Cyprus as one nation,biologically and ethnically the same.Believe me,once you really get to know the "other side" you cannot possibly hate them or fear them or want to call them names. That is the exciting challenge of forums like this,it gives people like you and me a chance to meet and talk and hopefully realise that above all we are human beings who feel the same strong emotions about our ancestry and family and homeland.
I admire your passion and your intelligence,and you are obviously a well travelled and well educated and well cultured person. And your wish to defend your father's ancestry (which is the same as mine) against what you think are unjust accusations are to be respected.But you must keep an open mind,despite all the provocative statements you are subjected to in this forum,that some of those accusations might have some truth in them. In times of war and extreme stress human beings can be reduced to robotic animals capable of acts of barbarity.This doesn't make a whole nation barbarians though,and noone has the right to accuse your father's ancesty of barbarity.My great uncle was killed at 86 years old in a little known massacre in Cyprus after the 1963 troubles. I was told the killer was a Greek Cypriot,and I have no reason to doubt that.But that doesn't make the whole Greek Cypriot nation barbarians.And it is not a reason for me to hate GCs,after my experiences with their glorious culture and civilisation.

I am probably old enough to be your father,which is neither here nor there,but it gives me a strong need to reach out to you and try to get you to tone down your posts (which you are doing anyway imo),and use your vast knowledge and intelligence in more constructive ways to highlight our common humanity,our common need for personal and emotional security,our common desire to do the best for our beloved Cyprus.
I don't know where your home is,but my home is Cyprus and I have been in exile for more than 30 years,and I don't want to return to a country torn apart by blind nationalism,sectarian violence, imperialist greed, and pointless hatred. And I know that without a just solution,a solution that will address the needs of all Cypriots,it will be impossible to achieve lasting peace in Cyprus. Partition is not the answer to the human tragedy that engulfs Cyprus.That is the recipy for permanent hatred and bitterness.Unification,with proper safeguards for people's human rights is the only way to achieve peace and prosperity for all Cypriots in the future.But that won't happen unless we are all prepared to put the interests of our homeland ahead of all other interests.Time will tell if we can manage to achieve unification.If we can't then we do not deserve to have a homeland,and I will die in exile wondering why we human beings are so readily tricked into hating our brothers and sisters,so ready to betray our homeland.I want you,Azeroglu,on my side fighting to highlight our similarities and humanity,not our differences and inhumanity.Allah yardimcimiz olsun (may God help us).

[ARMENIAN CYPRIOT]

Lacin corridor had no Armenians, like Varosha had no Turks. My brethren must have taken the Turkish example of doing things during that peace operation.

[Alexis]

Did I tell you what this Palestinian woman from Ramallah who was going back home via Amman, and who was on my Cyprus Airways Larnaca-Amman flight told me? "I always thought there was nothing stronger than the animosity between us and the Jews, until I heard Greek Cypriots talk about Turks".

Of course it did not surprise me, since I was waiting for that old green bus that runs from Larnaca International Airport to Lefkosia (your side) one time, and a Greek Cypriot standing next to me waiting for his ride who had just arrived from London, began making disparaging remarks about Turks. I was on Greek territory, so I held my tongue. But it made me believe in Denktas, more and more and more.

This is another reason why the Turkish occupation has damaged our country to such an extent. While some argue that it has brought about 30 years of peace what it has actually done is to allow the bad feelings to fester to the extent that the two communities have become more and more polarised. 30 years of zero interaction, and for what? So we can partitiopn the island and live side by side in total revulsion of each other? Some people say a partitioned island will bring peace, I disagree.

[Tony-4497]

Armenian Cypriot

I for one will never vote for any plan that gives the TC community more then 18% of are island. After that I can careless if they want to become independent.

I fully agree with you on this point. I also believe that the vast majority of Greek Cypriots feel the same.

Politicians and negotiators are spending huge amounts of time and effort in developing complex power sharing arrangements and dealing with all sorts of other issues but forget about what in my view is THE most fundamental issue (other than safety, that is).

I believe that the main problem most Greek Cypriots have is the very basic issue of the violent THEFT of their land by Turkey and not a burning desire to live together or share power with Turkish Cypriots against the wishes of the latter.

I consider that the vast majority of GCs would accept almost ANY solution (even the Annan plan) if it provided proper safety guarantees and limited the TC-controlled area to say 20%, which is fair (if not generous) and consistent with population and land ownership pre-74.

GC politicians are committing a crime against this country through idiotically neglecting to clearly state that any solution providing more than 20% for TCs is unacceptable.

Even an idiot can see, through a basic analysis of historic and current data, that any kind of power sharing arrangement will, sooner or later, fail, and all that will be left in the long term will be the borders between the areas controlled by the 2 communities.