Cyprus-Forum.com

[supporttheunderdog]

supporttheunderdog, Britain was one of the biggest imperial powers and the harm that the British have done to the world (and they continue doing as the lapdogs of the Americans) can not be equated with anything that the Russians let alone Assad has ever done.

It is one thing to contemn certain actions of other countries and quite another to talk as if your own country is any better. If that is indeed what you believe then you are a victim of the bullshit that your own media is feeding you.

When Turkey your friend bombs the hell out of Kurds burning down whole villages that is just Turkey fighting "terrorists". When Turkey invades Cyprus, kills 1000s and ethnically cleanses 100s of thousands, thats just an issue that should be solved with negotiations between the "communities". But when somebody you don't like does even a tenth of what Turkey is doing, you suddenly scream and shout about it and you remember about innocent victims.

How many weapons have the Americans supplied to the Turks? The weapons that killed 1000s of Cypriots were made in USA and the supply of weapons to the Turks continues, helping them to maintain their illegal occupation. And then you come here to lecture us because we merely let a ship which was not even ours to continue its route?

When have I ever showed support forTurkey? - I have consistently deplored the invasion and now gross Hypocracy and the attrocities that they parctice towards the Kurds on the one hand and the Turkish Cypriots on the other - with the deplorable consequences for Cyprus - I have always called for the departure of the TAF, settlers and carpet baggers. I have also made it clear I do not follow the UK government line on Turkey being in the Eu - so wind yer neck in, bonny lad!

[Piratis]

It is not contradictory at all Piratis because the fact of the matter is that these "imperialists" DO recognise your right to self determination and they had very clear policies to that end.

So what changed between 1955 and 1964? The entire Balance of Power changed for a start and Cyprus wasn't nearly as strategically important as it was in 1955, because new defence treaties were signed (ANZUS) which changed the focus in the Asia Pacific with regards to Defence and Security of those outposts becoming the responsibility of the US. We are talking about nations that would have had no hope in hell defending themselves against the Soviet Union but instead rely on a nuclear deterrent!

I also pointed you to some documents and literature (and there are many) referring to Britain's then Foreign Affairs Minister that explicitly stated that if Cyprus had asked for independence in 1964 then it would be granted, and in fact, Britain then was even debating relinquishing control of the SBAs to the RoC but was prevented from doing so by NATO and the US!

Many things changed Piratis. You are always telling us that the Balance is always fluid and changes over time and that is certainly the case. These things are always fluid and from 1955 to 1964, it had changed drastically.

The US, as you know has a very clear policy of supporting the self determination of small nations around the world under the Kennedy administration. So in 1964 it would have all happened, the same year independence was granted to Malta!

In fact you tell me which colony in the world wasn't granted self determination and why would that be any different for Cyprus?

I know what your answer will be! Cyprus is strategically important right? So was Malta, and in this day and age you overstate this importance because the "imperialists" have all they need and there is a little tiny outcrop known as Diego Garcia even right in the heart of things and that is sovereign!

all this stuff is very serious Piratis no matter how you try to downplay it by blaming others alone. sure they are to blame for many things, that is never to be denied, but that is not the whole story. We played a very dangerous game during the cold war, then Greece betrayed Cyprus agreeing to carve our island up with Turkey.

The imperialists recognize the right of self-determination only in theory. In practice they don't, which is why there is such a great inconsistency between their words and their actions.

No "ANZUS" changed how strategic was Cyprus. Sure we could have waited and be given the same pseudo independence in 1964 instead of 1960. But I thought you were arguing that in 64 we would be given a real independence, and I didn't see any solid argument of yours that actually supports the difference between 60 and 64 in this respect.

[Paphitis]

Piratis,

You really need to read a bit more. ANZUS changed things significantly for Cyprus because the Brits were no longer required for Defence and Security of the Dominions. That was the primary reason behind the Suez Campaign.

The Brits not only supported self determination but the evidence seems to indicate that they also supported it in practice. If they wanted to hold on to Cyprus they would be able to make no mistake about it, but for them it wasn't worth the headache. Their 2 SBAs were sufficient to meet their needs!

[Piratis]

The vast majority of Cypriots did want enosis in the 50s

so obviously the next best move was a deal with turkey to split the island...wow how did i fail to see this?...

you talk about the 50's jump to 74...can you still claim the same view?..why wasn't the majority view respected?...you talk of democrasy only when it suits you...period...

can you claim the same view today?...do the vast majority yearn for enosis today?...and why not?...we are not wanted no more?...have we fallen from grace perhaps?...and why are we still flying their flag after so mush pain to this very day?...

"doksa to theo" for the greek madrasa hey piratis...

You see boomerang this is the great difference between me and you: I always respect the democratic choices of the Cypriot while you don't.

In the 50s the majority of Cypriots wanted union with Greece and I respect the right of the Cypriot people to do what they want with their own island. You don't.

Since the mid 60s that Junta took power in Greece the majority of Cypriots stopped supporting enosis and again I respect the choices of the majority of Cypriot people.

Today Cypriots do not want union with Greece, but the majority of them feels as Greek as they always did and they want to have the Greek national anthemn and fly the Greek flags. I respect this. You don't.

Therefore I am not "pro-enosis" I am pro-freedom, pro-democracy and pro the right of the Cypriot people to democratically choose what they want to do with their own island and I will always respect the democratic choices that Cypriots freely make.

On the other hand you do not support the right of the Cypriot people to democratically choose what to do with their own island. You only accept the choices of the Cypriot people if you agree with them. If you don't then you don't mind to side with the enemies of our island in order to force on us something which is against the will of the majority. In simple terms this is called treason.

[Piratis]

Piratis,

You really need to read a bit more. ANZUS changed things significantly for Cyprus because the Brits were no longer required for Defence and Security of the Dominions. That was the primary reason behind the Suez Campaign.

The Brits not only supported self determination but the evidence seems to indicate that they also supported it in practice. If they wanted to hold on to Cyprus they would be able to make no mistake about it, but for them it wasn't worth the headache. Their 2 SBAs were sufficient to meet their needs!

Do you know what "SBA" stands for, particularly that initial S Paphitis? It starts for "Sovereign". In other words 2 parts of our island are still under colonial rule. Why would we or anybody for that matters accept to have part of their territory under colonial rule? The British knew that if Cyprus was truly independent that sooner than later the Cypriots would demand a complete end of colonial rule in Cyprus. This is why they used the TCs and did all they did, to ensure that we would have other bigger problems to worry about.

And the British are in Cyprus not to protect any "dominions" but because they want a base (sovereign one, not whatever) near the Middle East and the Oil. No "ANZUS" changed this.

[Paphitis]

Piratis,

You really need to read a bit more. ANZUS changed things significantly for Cyprus because the Brits were no longer required for Defence and Security of the Dominions. That was the primary reason behind the Suez Campaign.

The Brits not only supported self determination but the evidence seems to indicate that they also supported it in practice. If they wanted to hold on to Cyprus they would be able to make no mistake about it, but for them it wasn't worth the headache. Their 2 SBAs were sufficient to meet their needs!

Do you know what "SBA" stands for, particularly that initial S Paphitis? It starts for "Sovereign". In other words 2 parts of our island are still under colonial rule. Why would we or anybody for that matters accept to have part of their territory under colonial rule? The British knew that if Cyprus was truly independent that sooner than later the Cypriots would demand a complete end of colonial rule in Cyprus. This is why they used the TCs and did all they did, to ensure that we would have other bigger problems to worry about.

And the British are in Cyprus not to protect any "dominions" but because they want a base (sovereign one, not whatever) near the Middle East and the Oil. No "ANZUS" changed this.

Yes I know what the S stands for. What is your point?

If we were patient we would have had the whole kaboodle by the mid 60s Piratis.

EOKA doesn't have the luxury of hindsight but we do, so please explain your stupidity!

[Piratis]

supporttheunderdog, Britain was one of the biggest imperial powers and the harm that the British have done to the world (and they continue doing as the lapdogs of the Americans) can not be equated with anything that the Russians let alone Assad has ever done.

It is one thing to contemn certain actions of other countries and quite another to talk as if your own country is any better. If that is indeed what you believe then you are a victim of the bullshit that your own media is feeding you.

When Turkey your friend bombs the hell out of Kurds burning down whole villages that is just Turkey fighting "terrorists". When Turkey invades Cyprus, kills 1000s and ethnically cleanses 100s of thousands, thats just an issue that should be solved with negotiations between the "communities". But when somebody you don't like does even a tenth of what Turkey is doing, you suddenly scream and shout about it and you remember about innocent victims.

How many weapons have the Americans supplied to the Turks? The weapons that killed 1000s of Cypriots were made in USA and the supply of weapons to the Turks continues, helping them to maintain their illegal occupation. And then you come here to lecture us because we merely let a ship which was not even ours to continue its route?

When have I ever showed support forTurkey? - I have consistently deplored the invasion and now gross Hypocracy and the attrocities that they parctice towards the Kurds on the one hand and the Turkish Cypriots on the other - with the deplorable consequences for Cyprus - I have always called for the departure of the TAF, settlers and carpet baggers. I have also made it clear I do not follow the UK government line on Turkey being in the Eu - so wind yer neck in, bonny lad!

You might have expressed your disagreement with the policy of your goverment, but you have never used the same strong language for your own goverment as you do for Russia's or Cyprus'. How about you show the same kind of outrage for the policies and actions of Britain before you go on to judge others in such a harsh way?

[Piratis]

Piratis,

You really need to read a bit more. ANZUS changed things significantly for Cyprus because the Brits were no longer required for Defence and Security of the Dominions. That was the primary reason behind the Suez Campaign.

The Brits not only supported self determination but the evidence seems to indicate that they also supported it in practice. If they wanted to hold on to Cyprus they would be able to make no mistake about it, but for them it wasn't worth the headache. Their 2 SBAs were sufficient to meet their needs!

Do you know what "SBA" stands for, particularly that initial S Paphitis? It starts for "Sovereign". In other words 2 parts of our island are still under colonial rule. Why would we or anybody for that matters accept to have part of their territory under colonial rule? The British knew that if Cyprus was truly independent that sooner than later the Cypriots would demand a complete end of colonial rule in Cyprus. This is why they used the TCs and did all they did, to ensure that we would have other bigger problems to worry about.

And the British are in Cyprus not to protect any "dominions" but because they want a base (sovereign one, not whatever) near the Middle East and the Oil. No "ANZUS" changed this.

Yes I know what the S stands for. What is your point?

If we were patient we would have had the whole kaboodle by the mid 60s Piratis.

EOKA doesn't have the luxury of hindsight but we do, so please explain your stupidity!

I already made my point. There was nothing in the mid 60s that was so different from a few years earlier as far as the interests of the British in Cyprus go. You are just making assumptions and similar assumptions could be used for the exact contrary argument: That we should have started earlier, when Turkey was weaker and other Greek islands were liberated and united with mainland Greece.

[Paphitis]

supporttheunderdog, Britain was one of the biggest imperial powers and the harm that the British have done to the world (and they continue doing as the lapdogs of the Americans) can not be equated with anything that the Russians let alone Assad has ever done.

It is one thing to contemn certain actions of other countries and quite another to talk as if your own country is any better. If that is indeed what you believe then you are a victim of the bullshit that your own media is feeding you.

When Turkey your friend bombs the hell out of Kurds burning down whole villages that is just Turkey fighting "terrorists". When Turkey invades Cyprus, kills 1000s and ethnically cleanses 100s of thousands, thats just an issue that should be solved with negotiations between the "communities". But when somebody you don't like does even a tenth of what Turkey is doing, you suddenly scream and shout about it and you remember about innocent victims.

How many weapons have the Americans supplied to the Turks? The weapons that killed 1000s of Cypriots were made in USA and the supply of weapons to the Turks continues, helping them to maintain their illegal occupation. And then you come here to lecture us because we merely let a ship which was not even ours to continue its route?

When have I ever showed support forTurkey? - I have consistently deplored the invasion and now gross Hypocracy and the attrocities that they parctice towards the Kurds on the one hand and the Turkish Cypriots on the other - with the deplorable consequences for Cyprus - I have always called for the departure of the TAF, settlers and carpet baggers. I have also made it clear I do not follow the UK government line on Turkey being in the Eu - so wind yer neck in, bonny lad!

You might have expressed your disagreement with the policy of your goverment, but you have never used the same strong language for your own goverment as you do for Russia's or Cyprus'. How about you show the same kind of outrage for the policies and actions of Britain before you go on to judge others in such a harsh way?

Actually Piratis I think you are talking a great deal of nonsense!

If the same thing hapenned in Britain or Australia, there would be hell to pay.

And the reason is very simple. It has nothing to do with "imperialism" or beating Syria with a stick but the fact that Syria has killed and tortured many of its own citizens!

I really can't fathom your rationale, and nor is this being critical or against the RoC. It's just not nice seeing innocent people being killed anywhere by whoever that may be, and surely the RoC is not responsible for those crimes in Syria but the ship should not have been allowed to leave, PERIOD!

[Paphitis]

Piratis,

You really need to read a bit more. ANZUS changed things significantly for Cyprus because the Brits were no longer required for Defence and Security of the Dominions. That was the primary reason behind the Suez Campaign.

The Brits not only supported self determination but the evidence seems to indicate that they also supported it in practice. If they wanted to hold on to Cyprus they would be able to make no mistake about it, but for them it wasn't worth the headache. Their 2 SBAs were sufficient to meet their needs!

Do you know what "SBA" stands for, particularly that initial S Paphitis? It starts for "Sovereign". In other words 2 parts of our island are still under colonial rule. Why would we or anybody for that matters accept to have part of their territory under colonial rule? The British knew that if Cyprus was truly independent that sooner than later the Cypriots would demand a complete end of colonial rule in Cyprus. This is why they used the TCs and did all they did, to ensure that we would have other bigger problems to worry about.

And the British are in Cyprus not to protect any "dominions" but because they want a base (sovereign one, not whatever) near the Middle East and the Oil. No "ANZUS" changed this.

Yes I know what the S stands for. What is your point?

If we were patient we would have had the whole kaboodle by the mid 60s Piratis.

EOKA doesn't have the luxury of hindsight but we do, so please explain your stupidity!

I already made my point. There was nothing in the mid 60s that was so different from a few years earlier as far as the interests of the British in Cyprus go. You are just making assumptions and similar assumptions could be used for the exact contrary argument: That we should have started earlier, when Turkey was weaker and other Greek islands were liberated and united with mainland Greece.

Statements by Britain's FA minister are no assumptions of mine. They are fact and if you analyze the geopolitics at play it makes a lot of sense.

I gave you reliable sources but you choose to ignore them.

Do your own research Piratis and open your eyes. The information is all there, and there are dozens of academics and political analysts which have painstakingly researched thousands of documents from the British Foreign Office. The Brits are meticulous about record everything!