Cyprus-Forum.com

[Lordo]

You can always tell how things are by the reaction of the fanatics and their escapologists on this site. If RoC is doing so well in these talks, how is it that everybody is asking for Christofias's removal from the talks.

The end game is being played as we speak. It's over. TCs are no longer interested in a a united Cyprus.

Can you give us a time when they were interested, to be in a really United Cyprus?

Surely, Annan Plan wasn't one of those times in 2004 or at any other time since then, specially not when the EU Principles are rejected to be part of the "United Cyprus"!

How about 1973 when Dengtash and Clerides came to an agreement on all 13 point changes to the constitution only to be vetoed by Big Mak himslef and Greece on account that it did not include Enosis. Accepted by Dengtas and Turkey. How much more unification do you need?

Can we have ALL the details for the above please and not just soundbites, because the Annan Plan was also meant to be a "Peace Plan" also !

Clerides, in his memoirs, acknowledges that “a major mistake was committed by Makarios” and the Government in not accepting the advice the letter contained.

The letter correctly stated, Clerides admits, that Denktash had accepted all the "13 points” forwarded by Makarios in 1963, and in the bargain the Greek Cypriots were to give was local government in a separate, communal structure. The Turkish negotiators were willing to live with Greek Cypriot proposals with respect to the powers and functions of municipal governance, and hence, Clerides writes, “we were wrong to refuse the Turkish proposal,” which would provide that local authorities would be placed jointly under supervision of the president and the vice president of the state.

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/clerides ... t%202.html

What possible reason was there to refuse this deal?

Because thats the kind of man he was. Noting was enough for him. Once he got a concession he would put it to one side and try to get more. Strangely despite the fact that every agreement we have had since 1960, has been slightly worse than the one before.

[Lordo]

Here is a link lordo i suggest you do some reading


http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/Clerides ... %2771.html

Clerides, in his memoirs, acknowledges that “a major mistake was committed by Makarios” and the Government in not accepting the advice the letter contained.

The letter correctly stated, Clerides admits, that Denktash had accepted all the "13 points” forwarded by Makarios in 1963, and in the bargain the Greek Cypriots were to give was local government in a separate, communal structure. The Turkish negotiators were willing to live with Greek Cypriot proposals with respect to the powers and functions of municipal governance, and hence, Clerides writes, “we were wrong to refuse the Turkish proposal,” which would provide that local authorities would be placed jointly under supervision of the president and the vice president of the state.

Have you read this bit?

[Hermes]

Lordo,

We've been over this before. There wasn't consistent political support on either side. Apart from the intrinsic difficulty of institutionalizing the enclaves and the residue of bitterness, Clerides insisted that there must be some state administrative supervision, while the Turks said that such supervision should be minimal and could only be undertaken by the judiciary. Clerides eventually agreed this could be achieved by the Supreme Court. Clerides was personally very committed to an agreement; but he wasn't always supported by his own Government which itself was being undermined by Athens. Denktash also gave the impression he was being held in check by Ankara. The opportunity was missed. But by then it was too late; the domestic situation was too unstable...

We could go over failed opportunities till the cows come home. Where does it get us?

[Lordo]

Lordo,

We've been over this before. There wasn't consistent political support on either side. Apart from the intrinsic difficulty of institutionalizing the enclaves and the residue of bitterness, Clerides insisted that there must be some state administrative supervision, while the Turks said that such supervision should be minimal and could only be undertaken by the judiciary. Clerides eventually agreed this could be achieved by the Supreme Court. Clerides was personally very committed to an agreement; but he wasn't always supported by his own Government which itself was being undermined by Athens. Denktash also gave the impression he was being held in check by Ankara. The opportunity was missed. But by then it was too late; the domestic situation was too unstable...

They got everything they wanted and more, except Enosis.

The saddest day for all Cypriots, and look at what it lead to.

[boulio]

Lordo its all in hindsight we can say anything today however in 1970 most cypriots would have thought these agreements were terrible because a small minority would have gained these rights thru arms and again you would have ten legailized enclaves that would most likely would have been under ankaras influence

[Me Ed]

We can all do moral relativism: you did this we did that blah blah blah.

What happened at GreenTree?

I think the TCs know it's a bad outcome for their way of life.

[repulsewarrior]

You can always tell how things are by the reaction of the fanatics and their escapologists on this site. If RoC is doing so well in these talks, how is it that everybody is asking for Christofias's removal from the talks.

The end game is being played as we speak. It's over. TCs are no longer interested in a a united Cyprus.

Can you give us a time when they were interested, to be in a really United Cyprus?

Surely, Annan Plan wasn't one of those times in 2004 or at any other time since then, specially not when the EU Principles are rejected to be part of the "United Cyprus"!

...the time is now as we speak, young men and women Occupy the Buffer Zone. let us not forget what we want, and in our commitment, consider acts such as theirs.

Green Tree may signal another one of many such consultations over 35-50 years which never seemed to end elegantly. between the slack that will be created between conferences so to speak, it may be that this identity of "Greek vs. Turk" and vise verse, will be shifted so that the dicotomy will become those who are Cypriot, and those that aspire to render these interests second to their Personal interests. A Cypriot identity may be formed, as the countervaling force, that have as an adversery the Nationalists (from both sides) who have held the debate for so long.

[humanist]

lordo

TCs are no longer interested in a a united Cyprus.

they never were .... and ....neither are the GC's in a divided Cyprus. So the game is where it has been for the past 37 years lol. With the exception that the RoC is an equal State in the EU respected and progressive to where it has been trusted to Preside over the EU and trusted that it will do the right thing for all its citizens. People are by far doing better than the people under the Turkish regime led by Eroglu .... a man ... who wishes to hold its people back because he is pro Turkish and anti Cyprus.

[Viewpoint]

lordo

TCs are no longer interested in a a united Cyprus.

they never were .... and ....neither are the GC's in a divided Cyprus. So the game is where it has been for the past 37 years lol. With the exception that the RoC is an equal State in the EU respected and progressive to where it has been trusted to Preside over the EU and trusted that it will do the right thing for all its citizens. People are by far doing better than the people under the Turkish regime led by Eroglu .... a man ... who wishes to hold its people back because he is pro Turkish and anti Cyprus.

So according to your logic because the Scandinavian countries are far better of that you GCs economically your leaders are holding you back...doesnt work that way mastermind. We in the TRNC may be behind south Cyprus but please take into account the opportunity chasm which you have stolen from us but even under the restrictions we are still far better off than the majority of countries in the world. The major desire for the majority of TCs is not wealth, first is security, second is self governance and third is wealth. Your mentality is to own 3 cars and take 3 holidays a year or own a million euro home, it does not necessarily mean that the people in the north are losing out just because they have 2 cars take one holiday a year or live in a 3 bed semi. These are all the mind games played by Gcs trying to get gullible people like kikaooo to think that if they accept GC demands life will be much much better than now and that Turkey is the big bad wolf denying you your rights. Well it dont work that way people can move south tomorrow to this so called promised land but they still refuse to do so because to them it is more a foreign land with more dangers and pitfalls than any other country in the Europe.

[Lordo]

lordo

TCs are no longer interested in a a united Cyprus.

they never were .... and ....neither are the GC's in a divided Cyprus. So the game is where it has been for the past 37 years lol. With the exception that the RoC is an equal State in the EU respected and progressive to where it has been trusted to Preside over the EU and trusted that it will do the right thing for all its citizens. People are by far doing better than the people under the Turkish regime led by Eroglu .... a man ... who wishes to hold its people back because he is pro Turkish and anti Cyprus.

The letter correctly stated, Clerides admits, that Denktash had accepted all the "13 points” forwarded by Makarios in 1963, and in the bargain the Greek Cypriots were to give was local government in a separate, communal structure. The Turkish negotiators were willing to live with Greek Cypriot proposals with respect to the powers and functions of municipal governance, and hence, Clerides writes, “we were wrong to refuse the Turkish proposal,” which would provide that local authorities would be placed jointly under supervision of the president and the vice president of the state.

Which bit of the above tells you that TCs were not interested in United Cyprus?

Unlike you I lived there in the 60s and do not remember ever discussing Taksim as a solution. Security certainly but Taksim never. I am not saying that it was not the goal of TMT, but on the ground level it was not an idea taken seriously by the population.