Bananiot,
Sorry for the late response.
No, we did not have power cuts. It just took me a while to get around to it!
Bananiot wrote:Kikapu, I will not reciprocate. I could take your lead and weave so many interesting theories that could make Agatha Kristie blush. Instead I will dwell on the true facts. Papadopoulos sent a letter to Annan in December 2003, literally begging him to convene talks, in order to solve the Cyprus issue before May the 1st 2004, when Cyprus would become a full member of EU, because if the Cyprus issue was not solved (his exact wording) by then, we would face europartition of the island.
"Facts" is something that has been exposed and brought to the surface from all hidden acts and intentions for ALL to see and agree to, Bananiot. In politics, I doubt we will ever get the "FACTS" for anything, I'm sorry to say. Yes, it is true, that Agatha Kristie was able to weave stories, but it took the likes of Columbo to untangle them by mostly using common sense, and if you really wanted to talk about fictional stories and characters, we can.
OK, so Papadopoulos sent a letter to Annan telling him in what you have stated and I'll take your word for it that, that is a fact, but so what? Were his intentions and concerns really "facts" in what he wrote, or were they just to buy time and go along with the flow to fool the gullible and the enemies of the RoC. We both know, that they were not facts of his intentions or his concern at all, because what he was after above anything else, was to get the EU membership for the RoC with the least amount of headwinds. That meant he had play the game and go through the Referendum motions, specially when there were so many enemies of the RoC who were waiting in glee to see the "solution" of Cyprus once and for all, as in Turkey once again regaining Cyprus through the likes of Bush, Blair, Annan, Erdogan, Verheugen and few others, so what's your point exactly?
Bananiot wrote:Of course he did not mean it, we all knew how he felt about BBF, but he thought he could play a game, just like many other GC leaders tried to do in the past (more notably Makarios). He probably fooled the "black" man and G. Verheugen himself, along with the rest of the leadership of the EU.
Agreed, he did not mean it, but I'm so sure it had anything to do it being about the BBF. He had agreed to the BBF as Makarios's lawyer. I wouldn't even be surprised if Papadopoulos drafted the whole BBF proposal. It would have mean getting rid of the 1959 Zurich agreements legally once and for all, which Denktash agreeing to BBF in effect did so, which I'm sure Denktash has regretted doing so till the day he died. But then again, Denktash thought that the Cyprus problems were over in 74, so he didn't really didn't care much at the time if it meant to keep the UN happy with hallow agreement on the BBF. Once the contents of the AP became such a lopsided event, Papadopoulos tried his best to make it as bad as possible from then on for it to become really unpalatable to the GCs during the Referendum. Just like you, he too saw reasons to object to the AP at every sentence and at every paragraph, and so he did. The fact that you did not, he can hardly be blamed for doing the most logical thing at the time by applying some basic common sense to it, which what the other 76% of the GCs did also. Yes, he fooled the above mentioned characters, but the rest of the EU leaders in my opinion were willing to be "fooled", because by having Cyprus in the EU meant keeping Turkey out of the EU as long as possible, assuming of course, these "fooled" EU leaders had no knowledge of the potential Gas & Oil in what would become RoC's EEZ and also become part of the EU's territory. My guess is, they were very happy to be "fooled" by Papadopoulos and that they too were going through the motions to make believe they were behind the AP!
Bananiot wrote:However, the most important player, Turkey, knew exactly where Papadopoulos was heading and went along with him. Denktash and his son knew long before the rest of the world that Papadopoulos was going to vote down any attempt to solve the Cyprus issue on the basis of BBF. He revealed himself during a secret meeting they had in Papadopoulos home.
Are you still applying "FACTS" to the above, or are you using suppositions. To date, Turkey still after 8 years cries over the failed AP and wants to bring it back. VP cries about the failed AP every day. Are you saying they are just playacting to make us think they like the AP, but in "fact", they are happy it never passed? But if Turkey wasn't fooled by Papadopoulos, then how can you say the rest of the EU leaders were fooled. Was Erdogan more clever than the other leaders.? Really?
As for the secret meetings between Papadopoulos and Denktash & Son, how can this be a "fact" if it was a secret meeting, unless ALL three actors in this secret meeting said that's what happened and that Papandopolous told Denktas & Son of his intentions that he was going to cry and say OXI, OXI, OXI to the AP. But lets just say for the sake of argument that what you said are FACTS to the best of your knowledge, then how do you explain Denktash saying NO to the AP when Turkey was saying YES to the AP, and if Turkey knew what Papadopoulos was up to, which was for him to say OXI to the AP, surely the most logical thing for Denktash to do, was to support Turkey's YES position, because in the end, he would have been guaranteed an OXI vote promised to him supposedly by Papadopoulos, but Denktash instead said NO to the AP. So if what you are saying it's true that Papadopoulos already gave Denktash & Son forewarning that he was going to OXI the AP, in that case Denktash really wasn't saying NO to the AP because he didn't like the AP, but because he knew that the AP would get an OXI vote from the GCs. So by Denktash supporting a NO vote was in fact killing two birds with one stone, which were,
a) he would not be seen as backing a losing Referendum which he would lose face, and
b) he would not raise any concerns with the GCs, that if Denktash backs the AP, then it must be good for the TCs and bad for the GCs. In the end, Denktash walked away as the "wise man" and Erdogan walked away with an egg on his face. Why would Turkey and Denktash differ on the AP? Could it be that if both Denktash and Turkey actually supported the same AP in their hearts, but not in public just so not to give reasons to many GC Denktash haters solid reasons to OXI the AP. Common sense would dictate that, would it not?
But what you wrote about Papadopoulos meeting in secret with Denktash & Son has another version of it to being "fact", which I happen to read it just yesterday in this article by Makarios Droushiotis. The author ONLY talks about Serdar Denktash and not the father having a conversation to "torpedo" the AP. Is this just a another "fact" what the author wrote or did he forget that Denktash the father was also at these secret meetings. You see what I mean about politics and facts. They hardly go hand in hand I'm afraid.
By Makarios Droushiotis
The nationalist camp was gripped by panic. Instead of conducting negotiations, as he had committed to in writing, Papadopoulos talked to Serdar Denktash behind the scenes in a bid to jointly block the process. Eventually, Papadopoulos found an outlet by tapping into people's fears, and with Christofias' support he maintained the status quo. Denktash, always a straight talker, expressed his admiration for Papadopoulos, even thanking him in public: "Papadopoulos saved us, and for that I thank him."
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/denktash/tot ... h/20120122
Bananiot wrote:Papadopoulos needed, however, to secure a plan that was as bad for the GC as possible. In this way the criticism against him from the international community would be milder and not so damaging. He refused to ask for Karpasia when the peninsula was there to be claimed and went missing during a critical time of the discussions. Turkey and Denktash helped him to realise his "noble" aims, of saving Cyprus from solution. Why in heaven would Erdogan thwart the GC's from voting yes by claiming publicly that the plan was great for Turkey's interests? If Turkey felt that the plan was so good for it, then Erdogan and indeed anyone in his place, would claim that the plan was bad for Turkey, appealing to the ignorance of the locals who formulate policies and make decisions according to the signals sent by the others than as a result of scientific analysis.
I will need to disagree with you and say that Turkey and Denktash DIDN'T help Papadopoulos to realise his "noble" aims, of saving Cyprus from solution, but instead, helped him save Cyprus from major disaster. Most average person on the street would have seen it the way you have described it, but Papandopolous knew exactly what the AP was all about and it was not about a "solution for Cyprus" in what reasonable person would considers what a good solution would be. My cousin's husband said it very clearly to me when I meet them in Cyprus few years ago, which he said "we did not vote for peace, we voted for the Annan Plan". The cousin's husband also knew just as Denktash, Erdogan and even VP what Papadopoulos knew, which was, that the AP was going to benefit the "trnc"/Turkey far more than it was going to benefit the RoC. The difference between the two sides was as wide as the Grand Canyon one would say, and the final vote on the AP's referendum proved that being the case. I need to one more time post this statement by by Perry Anderson. How can anyone argue with his conclusion in his statement regarding the AP? I cannot.
The Divisions of Cyprus
by Perry Anderson"When votes were counted, the results said everything: 65 per cent of Turkish Cypriots accepted it, 76 per cent of Greek Cypriots rejected it. What political scientist, without needing to know anything about the plan, could for an instant doubt whom it favoured?" http://www.lrb.co.uk/v30/n08/ande01_.html
Bananiot wrote:Almost 8 years after, not a single Turkish soldier has left. Not a single GC refugee has returned. Not an inch of ground has been returned to the RoC. The number of settlers has grown enormously. The north is now totally turkified. The european solution Papadopoulos promised instead of BBF has not materialised. Papadopoulos legacy lives on and the majority of GC's are now ardent supporters of Denktash's line. Those on one side and us on the other side!
That is true, but at the same time you have no firm evidence that the contrary would have happened in a lot of the cases had the AP was approved, so naturally, it is very easy to play the "armchair quarterback" after the fact. The AP was going to be a Confederation which you yourself at one point agreed that's what it was going to be, which it wouldn't have been so bad if it was completely based on the Swiss Model as it was claimed, but not true, because the Federal government in the United Cyprus would have been on politically equal to the other two Federal states, which each had the right to do basically what they wanted without interference from other state or the Federal government. Basically they would have been as good as being Independent Sovereign States which meant they can make treaties with other countries because there were not going to be any
Hierarchy Laws in the new United Cyprus between the Federal Government and the two Federal States. With no such laws, there wasn't anything that could stop the "TC State to bring over as many settlers as they wanted as well as ask the Turkish Army to stay and what ever else Turkey wanted, because ALL this would have happened with the GCs approval by saying YES to the AP.
"There shall be no hierarchy between the laws of the {common state} and those of the {component states}."
Bananiot wrote:Of course, Piratis and the rest of his creed can fool themselves that this would be a temporary measure. Until the balance changes to our favour and the timid Cyps would become fearful warriors that will scare the "Mongols" back to where they came from.
I believe ALL True Cypriots wants what is best for Cyprus and for themselves with a good plan for a settlement, even if it's not a perfect plan, but a good plan, specially now that we are in the EU. I just believe like many other True Cypriots, that the Annan Plan was not it, that's all!
Kikapo will now settle for a "good" plan that is NOT perfect 
