Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

The ECHR came down to the levels of the icp for a start and then, that was the last of the cases to be dealt with by the ECHR. From now on, it is all about the ipc, who will pass judgements according to the norms set by the ECHR. There is nothing to shout about or indeed be jubilant about, as the titles suggested in most GC newspapers today. Most newspapers came out with huge headers "mammoth payments" they said but this is a fallacy. Turkey is very happy with the decision, more than paphitis and kurupettos. In fact only Lordos was awarded 8 million, the rest got much smaller sums, far less than a million.

As far as I know, the only money that has been handed out to date, was awarded by the ipc and some 100 000 000 euro was spent on about 230 applicants. This comes to about 40 000 per applicant on average. Can anybody be really jubilant about this?

The ECHR has not come down to IPC levels. It has merely mandated that claimants exhaust other 'remedies'. It does not recognise that those other 'remedies' will be adequate, which leaves those verdicts open to Appeal.

No one, especially our family is shouting about anything and that includes our Lawyers. We quietly go about exhausting all legal avenues as is required from the ECHR judgement. That means filing at the IPC (a decision not taken lightly), and getting a judgement no matter how small. It is not a source of jubilation for anyone, but it is part of the process we need to endure, before appealing any judgement and then proceeding back to the ECHR which will address Article 1 and Article 8.

That is the situation Bananiot, and I talk from experience in that our family is an ECHR claimant now scheduled for the IPC. We and our Lawyers will not accept compensations of €40,000. Which makes the IPC verdict open to Appeal, and especially since it will not address Article 1 and 8 as required by the ECHR for it to be a remedy. What Turkey is hoping is that some claimants do accept and let it off the hook. Some claimants might just do that, and I am certain this will suit Turkey, but most will not. Our Lawyers are still keen to take us to the IPC, with their Turkish counterparts. They are paid bona fide (10%) and €4,000 is not enough. The end game is the ECHR where they will be paid much, much more including the claimants.

Over the next 2 years, you will see the first IPC cases back to the ECHR. The IPC is just a setback, as it delays all of us by a number of years, and it is a hindrance.

All of this is not a source of jubilation Bananiot. It is not a game and I for one talk from experience and being in the know about such matters. It is about following the process, and that is what we are doing. The families of the claimants have been wronged, and there is a case to be answered by Turkey. Eventually, these cases will be back to where they started (ECHR).

I also remind you that many of the claimants now proceeding to the IPC have been villified by many bash patriots. They and their Lawyers have been labelled "traitors", and been accused of formerly recognizing the "legal authorities of the trnc". A source for jubilation it certainly is not, not for us anyway. Basically, they can keep their opinions to their themselves. We have some of the best Lawyers in the business, who know what they are doing and want to be paid for services rendered. So we press on and the road is long and difficult for all concerned, including our Lawyers who are taking tremendous risks.

[SKI-preo]

The ECHR came down to the levels of the icp for a start and then, that was the last of the cases to be dealt with by the ECHR. From now on, it is all about the ipc, who will pass judgements according to the norms set by the ECHR. There is nothing to shout about or indeed be jubilant about, as the titles suggested in most GC newspapers today. Most newspapers came out with huge headers "mammoth payments" they said but this is a fallacy. Turkey is very happy with the decision, more than paphitis and kurupettos. In fact only Lordos was awarded 8 million, the rest got much smaller sums, far less than a million.

As far as I know, the only money that has been handed out to date, was awarded by the ipc and some 100 000 000 euro was spent on about 230 applicants. This comes to about 40 000 per applicant on average. Can anybody be really jubilant about this?

100,000,000 by 230 is 437,782 Euro not 40,000 Euro.Buy a calculator which is not made in Turkey mate.

Also IPC being a quasijudicial commission rather than a formal Court. You cannot elect to make a claim for the remedy of loss of use and enjoyment without signing a waiver for the rest of your rights. In effect you are signing up for a whitewash of war crimes.

Turkish military justice is like Turkish Calculator manufacture.

[Bananiot]

So you have a vested interest in the matter paphitis and this brought you out of the closet. Interesting to see your apologetical style (which we have not been accustomed to) in explaining to the forumers the merits of going to the ipc as a necessary evil, before landing back on the ECHR. Apparently, to make you feel better, about 2800 applicants have gone to the ipc and some 200 cases have been concluded. About 80 million euro have been paid to claimants and my japanese calculator, which is miles better than my turkish one, tells me that on average 400 000 euro have been paid per applicant. In this case of course the matter finishes here once and for all. You kiss your property good bye for ever. Of course, just to make you feel better again, you can tell the ipc to shove their compensation you know where and go back, hopefully, to the ECHR which perhaps will make a decision after about 40 years. However, if the compensation is deemed by you and your lawyers satisfactory, you of course will take the money and let the bash patriots shout abuse as much as they like.

[humanist]

On this issue

a/ what happens to the land?
b/ if a refugee relinquishes their property through ipc id the RoC government obliged to accept this?

I guess it would have too because it is individuals dealing with their own property as they wish

[Bananiot]

You have hit the nail on the head humanist. Firstly, the RoC cannot (other than offer useless advice) prevent the refugees from making a deal with the "TRNC". This applies to all kinds of properties. The most important issue is that by our stupid actions (because we thought that the Cyprus problem could be solved with legal actions) we are as much responsible as the ECHR for the birth of the ipc. The lawyers, greedy as always to make easy money, spurred by the bash patriots, encouraged thousands of refugees to apply to the ECHR for a nominal fee to start with and percentage cut on any compensation awarded by the court. Sane people saw the danger back then and warned against such actions but it only took a couple of kurupettos to shout "traitor" and every body jumped onto the band wagon of insanity. Now we are paying for it and on top we are jubilant about it because we think we dealt Turkey a hefty blow. This has been the story of this place, always being led by the nose by the most mediocre, moronic people with megalomaniac aspirations.

[Hermes]

A couple of points made by Achilleas Demetriades on the significance of this outcome:

The lawyer who handled the case, Achilleas Demetriades said that this decision is particularly important for two reasons: "First, this decision is the final decision of the ECHR in the Loizidou case cycle, which gives the ECtHR costing for loss of use of property within the fenced city of Famagusta. And the second binds the claims commission to give compensation to be only for the loss of use, not the expropriation of property".

http://www.politis-news.com/

[Paphitis]

So you have a vested interest in the matter paphitis and this brought you out of the closet. Interesting to see your apologetical style (which we have not been accustomed to) in explaining to the forumers the merits of going to the ipc as a necessary evil, before landing back on the ECHR. Apparently, to make you feel better, about 2800 applicants have gone to the ipc and some 200 cases have been concluded. About 80 million euro have been paid to claimants and my japanese calculator, which is miles better than my turkish one, tells me that on average 400 000 euro have been paid per applicant. In this case of course the matter finishes here once and for all. You kiss your property good bye for ever. Of course, just to make you feel better again, you can tell the ipc to shove their compensation you know where and go back, hopefully, to the ECHR which perhaps will make a decision after about 40 years. However, if the compensation is deemed by you and your lawyers satisfactory, you of course will take the money and let the bash patriots shout abuse as much as they like.

I wouldn't talk about "vested interests". All claimants have been denied the use of their properties, because of the illegal occupation. We are not talking about some kind of business deal, by those that have lost property and were denied their Human Rights. You are being most absurd as per usual.

No one has a vested interest in the IPC, but as I stated to you earlier, the claimants need to go through the legal process as mandated by the ECHR and exhaust the so called 'local remedy'. The decisions of the IPC are not binding, and all claimants are free to decline the offer of compensation which also involves expropriation of their property. Rather than compensation, exchange property could also be offered or a combination of compensation and exchange, and that can be declined also.

Last time I checked there were 1,500 applicants, and this number was rapidly increasing. The number of applicants is increasing because most don't believe they are going to get their properties back, and that certainly was the case under the Annan Plan. Also, refugees are properly obtaining the correct advice from proper sources such as Demetriades, Candounas, or Georgiades. And that advice would no doubt be similar to the advice received by us. And that is, the IPC rulings are not binding, and can be rejected by appealing to a higher court and eventually to the ECHR whereby the claimants will be able to file for Article 1 and Article 8 and still retain legal ownership.

Of course, should the IPC ruling be satisfactory, then most claimants will accept. It will be difficult not to if the IPC offered an obscene amount of money or favourable exchange property. That is human nature, and the bash patriots can say what they want. After all, bet most of them have not found themselves in the predicament of the refugees and I bet they couldn't even give a damn about them either, just like you don't. Unfortunately for the IPC, and Turkey, €400,000 is not enough (especially since that involves expropriation) for most applicants, and it certainly won't be enough for us or our Lawyers who will only be paid €40,000 between them for hundreds of hours of work and preparation. The idea is to get a ruling from the IPC, and if inadequate, then appeal all the way back to the ECHR and claim for loss of enjoyment as we initially did. The expectation from the ECHR is that the IPC is suppose to address loss of enjoyment, and that is something they will not do, which gives the applicants enough grounds to appeal no matter what the amount of compensation.

I am no advocate for the IPC. I would rather the ECHR any day, and if anyone was to ask me for advice, then I will simply tell them to obtain proper legal advice from Demetriades, Candounas, or Georgiades. It is better for all refugees to arm themselves with the correct knowledge so that they can make an informed decision on whether they too should proceed through this legal process/quagmire. Such claims are extremely unpredictable, and the process is long and hard, but the first cases would begin to start lodging at the ECHR within the coming months.

[kurupetos]

You have hit the nail on the head humanist. Firstly, the RoC cannot (other than offer useless advice) prevent the refugees from making a deal with the "TRNC". This applies to all kinds of properties. The most important issue is that by our stupid actions (because we thought that the Cyprus problem could be solved with legal actions) we are as much responsible as the ECHR for the birth of the ipc. The lawyers, greedy as always to make easy money, spurred by the bash patriots, encouraged thousands of refugees to apply to the ECHR for a nominal fee to start with and percentage cut on any compensation awarded by the court. Sane people saw the danger back then and warned against such actions but it only took a couple of kurupettos to shout "traitor" and every body jumped onto the band wagon of insanity. Now we are paying for it and on top we are jubilant about it because we think we dealt Turkey a hefty blow. This has been the story of this place, always being led by the nose by the most mediocre, moronic people with megalomaniac aspirations.

I'm not just one then. Excellent.

Any deal with an outlaw regime is criminal and treasonous. Not?

Oh, wait a minute. What's this?

because we thought that the Cyprus problem could be solved with legal actions

I drop my case.

[Paphitis]

You have hit the nail on the head humanist. Firstly, the RoC cannot (other than offer useless advice) prevent the refugees from making a deal with the "TRNC". This applies to all kinds of properties. The most important issue is that by our stupid actions (because we thought that the Cyprus problem could be solved with legal actions) we are as much responsible as the ECHR for the birth of the ipc. The lawyers, greedy as always to make easy money, spurred by the bash patriots, encouraged thousands of refugees to apply to the ECHR for a nominal fee to start with and percentage cut on any compensation awarded by the court. Sane people saw the danger back then and warned against such actions but it only took a couple of kurupettos to shout "traitor" and every body jumped onto the band wagon of insanity. Now we are paying for it and on top we are jubilant about it because we think we dealt Turkey a hefty blow. This has been the story of this place, always being led by the nose by the most mediocre, moronic people with megalomaniac aspirations.

No the most important issue is that the refugees, you know those insignificant moronic peoples that have the audacity to make claims against the RoT and the illegal occupation over lands which they were wrongfully dispossessed of or prevented from utilising. These refugees are unable to solve the Cyprus Issue. They elect politicians who are suppose to look after their interests and work towards a solution to the Cyprus Problem, they can not do it themselves. They have legal ownership of property in the illegally occupied zone, and have legal grounds to make claims against Turkey all the way up to the ECHR. The compensation is for a crime committed against them by Turkey, and as a result of those crimes and being denied their rightfull human rights, they are fully entitled to seek some form of justice and compensation.

How dare they (sarcasm)!

[Kikapu]

I still don't know what is it that Bananiot is complaining or upset about!

Is he asking people not to go to the IPC?
Is he asking people to go to the IPC?
Is he asking people not to go to the ECHR?
Is he asking people to go to the ECHR?

Anyone!