Cyprus-Forum.com

[Hermes]

Interesting news. This is one more reason why Turkey cannot stay in Cyprus indefinitely. Not just the cost of maintaining an occupation army overseas and subsidising a broken economy but there are legal implications and financial penalties from depriving people of their land and properties.

Does this set a precedent for all refugees to make a claim against Turkey for damages? Anyone know?

Erm some quick guesses on that H... Firstly of course these are old pre-ipc cases. There are violations on two Articles of the ECHR. One is the outright property issue under Article 1 of Protocal 1 and we know the ECHR's view on that is go to the "ipc". The second one is an Article no. 8 violation, the respect for home and private life article, for which the "ipc" may not be the "effective local remedy" that the ECHR and others would have us believe. So it may be of value that this second violation (Article be separated from the "property" article and tested on its own.

Needs research.

Thanks for that, Bill. I expect we'll hear more about this issue...

The Republic of Cyprus (RoC) has asked the Council of Europe to freeze discussion on immoveable property and housing in relation to Cyprus and the ‘TRNC’ until the European Court of Human Rights ECHR clarifies a list of legal questions in relation Greek Cypriot property rights in the north.

The November 3 letter asked the ECHR to clarify that appeals to the IPC do not annihilate Turkey’s human rights obligations.

Marcoullis said they had a “very good case and documentation” on Turkey’s continual violation of the 2001 ECHR ruling.

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/cyprus/gover ... y/20111129

[humanist]

let that be a lesson for those who think they will get a better deal, by going to a commission in a country that does not exist lol
I do feel ofr the poor bastard
but hey he got dubed

[GreekIslandGirl]

Bill, have you heard of the deals that have been made with lawyers who pushed refugees to go to the ECHR? We are talking about thousands of euros. Mostly, they get a big cut from any money Turkey pays, if ever it pays. Some lawyers also pay a lot of attention to this in order to enhance their political image. Perhaps, it is a short cut to the Parliament.

You're only concern appears to be that Turkey might have to pay.

[Paphitis]

These gutsy people brought about the ipc. These were the last cases that the ECHR examines. From now on it is all about the ipc. Thank you gutsy people (and lawyers, who saw the opportunity to make easy money).

Absolutely astonished at your insensitive remark about "seeing an opportunity to make easy money". This is a new low, even for you.

It was the ECHR that mandated the need for a 'local remedy' first, hence Turkey's implementation of the IPC as that 'local remedy'. Those that lost use of their properties and businesses, including revenues, and who were denied their rights under Protocol 1 and Article 8 had nothing to do with it. They simply need to exhaust all other avenues first, which initially is the IPC, and later we presume that another mandatory avenue will be the Supreme Court of Turkey by appealing any unsatisfactory outcome from the IPC.

After, these avenues are exhausted, and then it is back to the ECHR. This is a process that will take many years.

As to your stupid remark, do you need to be reminded that these gutsy people were deprived of their property, were ethnically cleansed from their villages? Many migrated overseas, and life for some has never recovered, children suffered and were deprived of their innocence and youth. This is not a good way to make money, and no amount of money can repair these broken lives, hearts and dreams.

There is a legal process to be followed and the obstacles are many. People are being discouraged from filing cases with the IPC, but these matters are for the refugees and their lawyers to reconcile.

[Paphitis]

Bill, have you heard of the deals that have been made with lawyers who pushed refugees to go to the ECHR? We are talking about thousands of euros. Mostly, they get a big cut from any money Turkey pays, if ever it pays. Some lawyers also pay a lot of attention to this in order to enhance their political image. Perhaps, it is a short cut to the Parliament.

Lawyers DID NOT "push" anyone.

Each family has had to make their own personal choice. To lodge in the ECHR, it costs each family about €10,000, sometimes more if you need to pay for valuations etc.

Legal Fees are mostly bona fide, and are payable if and when Turkey pays and the levy is a standard 10% of the compensation. Lawyers are taking a tremendous risk, and for each individual case, they spend many hundreds of hours preparing, and corresponding with those they represent, the IPC, ECHR, and other expert Lawyers and Barristers in other countries.

The Lawyers that represent us are highly esteemed and internationally recognized as experts in their field. They will in all likelihood become very wealthy when Turkey does pay, and at this stage we have no reason to believe that it will not. Also, most cases that are now in queue at the IPC will eventually lodge at the ECHR down the track. Most will never accept meager compensations or exchange property, but go to the IPC because it is a 'local remedy' that must be exhausted first as mandated by the ECHR, probably as a delaying tactic or extra barrier.

There are no political aspirations as far as I know. They have even been labelled as "traitors" to Cyprus by the ignorant, which is atrocious and insensitive to those they represent, which have suffered quite enough. No amount of compensation can fix that suffering, and I am certain that all refugees would rather do without this "opportunity to make easy money" and to have been able to enjoy a normal and happy life in their own homes and villages with their families.

Most naively seek justice, and who can blame them? Unfortunately, there is no justice system to cater for them, but a legal system or process, and a good lawyer knows the system and process well, and is able to deliver the best possible outcome.

And one more thing, the lead Lawyer at the IPC is a TC associate of Demetriades and Candounas. Later, at the Supreme Court of Turkey, the lead Lawyer will be Turkish, and then back to the ECHR where Demetriades or Candounas take over, probably with a TC and Turkish Lawyer in toe. They work in teams, and there are even more Lawyers and Barristers in the background that have offered their input or advice and who must be payed. All in all, up to 10 or more Lawyers can work on each individual case from several countries. All to be paid bona fide.

[Bananiot]

I have not bothered to read all the stupid posts on this one. The crust of the matter is that the court has rejected our estimations and has accepted those of the icp. Is this something to shout about? You could not get more ridiculous than this. Bloody hell, read the damn decision before throwing your hats around with joy. Lordos (not Lordo of the cf) claimed 45 million and he got just 8, which also includes ... psychological trauma too.You can fool yourselves as much as you like but allow me not to be fooled. That was a match lost, not won!

[Kikapu]

I have not bothered to read all the stupid posts on this one. The crust of the matter is that the court has rejected our estimations and has accepted those of the icp. Is this something to shout about? You could not get more ridiculous than this. Bloody hell, read the damn decision before throwing your hats around with joy. Lordos (not Lordo of the cf) claimed 45 million and he got just 8, which also includes ... psychological trauma too.You can fool yourselves as much as you like but allow me not to be fooled. That was a match lost, not won!

Bananiot, Lordos got the 8 million Euros instead of the 34 million, but that was just for the loss of use of his property and not a payment by Turkey for his property if I understood the article well. In another words, he got 8 million Euros and he still owns all of his properties in the north. Not too bad me thinks. Just how much money could he have gotten from the IPC for his loss use of his property in comparison, without having to go to the ECHR? Actually, nothing for loss use of his property from the IPC!

[Bananiot]

The ECHR came down to the levels of the icp for a start and then, that was the last of the cases to be dealt with by the ECHR. From now on, it is all about the ipc, who will pass judgements according to the norms set by the ECHR. There is nothing to shout about or indeed be jubilant about, as the titles suggested in most GC newspapers today. Most newspapers came out with huge headers "mammoth payments" they said but this is a fallacy. Turkey is very happy with the decision, more than paphitis and kurupettos. In fact only Lordos was awarded 8 million, the rest got much smaller sums, far less than a million.

As far as I know, the only money that has been handed out to date, was awarded by the ipc and some 100 000 000 euro was spent on about 230 applicants. This comes to about 40 000 per applicant on average. Can anybody be really jubilant about this?

[Kikapu]

The ECHR came down to the levels of the icp for a start and then, that was the last of the cases to be dealt with by the ECHR. From now on, it is all about the ipc, who will pass judgements according to the norms set by the ECHR. There is nothing to shout about or indeed be jubilant about, as the titles suggested in most GC newspapers today. Most newspapers came out with huge headers "mammoth payments" they said but this is a fallacy. Turkey is very happy with the decision, more than paphitis and kurupettos. In fact only Lordos was awarded 8 million, the rest got much smaller sums, far less than a million.

As far as I know, the only money that has been handed out to date, was awarded by the ipc and some 100 000 000 euro was spent on about 230 applicants. This comes to about 40 000 per applicant on average. Can anybody be really jubilant about this?

Bananiot, I'm not sure what it is that you are complaining about. When these claimants applied to the ECHR, that was their only avenue for payment and justice and it seems like they have on average got big money for the loss use of their properties. The IPC will not give money for the loss use of their properties, nor return their properties in most cases. The IPC came about because of the ECHR and not because Turkey took initiatives to create the IPC to make it fair to the refugees seeking payment for the loss use of their properties. The IPC is a sham and as long as the GC refugees insist on getting money for the loss use of their properties in the north which the IPC will not pay, these people will eventually end up at the ECHR once again and receive large payments.

If the 100,000 million Euros is correct in what the IPC has paid out to 230 claims, then the average payment would be around 400,000 Euros per claim and not 40,000 as you stated. Innocent mistake I'm certain of. Every claim is different from each other of course, based on their properties, but these 13 who just got a large payment from the ECHR does sound like a "jackpot", even if it was ONLY a "lousy" 1 million Euros for loss use of their properties and not the 8 million Euros what Lordos got. This large payment will ONLY make the refugees at the IPC insist on getting payment for the loss use of their properties in the north just so to end up at the door steps of the ECHR in the future to milk Turkey for far more money than just settling for an average of 400,000 Euros in selling their properties to to the IPC and getting ripped off at the same time. I'm still not sure what it is that you are complaining about.

[Paphitis]

I have not bothered to read all the stupid posts on this one. The crust of the matter is that the court has rejected our estimations and has accepted those of the icp. Is this something to shout about? You could not get more ridiculous than this. Bloody hell, read the damn decision before throwing your hats around with joy. Lordos (not Lordo of the cf) claimed 45 million and he got just 8, which also includes ... psychological trauma too.You can fool yourselves as much as you like but allow me not to be fooled. That was a match lost, not won!

The ECHR has awarded between €100,000 and €8,000,0000 to each of the 13 applicants. Now, the lower end of compensation I would presume would go to children who were denied their rights under Article 8. The larger compensations being paid for loss of enjoyment which is Article 1 and Article 8 combined. Bearing in mind that some of the claimants might not have even been alive in 1974, but still entitled to pecuniary damages.

The cases before the IPC will not address violations against Article 1 or Article 8, but merely attempt to circumvent the claims to favour Turkey instead, by offering exchange or small amounts of compensation for loss of property not loss of enjoyment, and those compensations will be along the lines of 1974 valuations. This will prove to be unsatisfactory to most claimants, but as I said earlier, it is all about the process that must be exhausted before going on further to another Court of Appeals, then back to the ECHR.

Being an ECHR claimant ourselves, we have made a difficult decision along with our Lawyers and have filed at the IPC. There is no other choice other than not filing at all. There is a process before us, and we must exhaust it and then potentially find ourselves back at the ECHR which is our aim should the compensation be unsatisfactory which we expect it will be.