Cyprus-Forum.com

[cypezokyli]

yeap reading is difficult with this map

in general i agree with alexis and bg_turk
but i would disagree that greece used the past to eathnicly cleanse the greek macedonia. though it did cleance... as i said before it was a common practise at the time and was done by all new formed states (greece and turkey are typical examples that shouldnt make us proud)

[Piratis]

You go too far Piratis in your expectations.

Kifeas, about what expectations you are talking about?

If you are talking about my position about the use of the word "Macedonia" by FYROM, I do not expect that the word will disappear from the name of this country. However I do hope that a fair compromise will be found.

Greece has to use whatever power she has, including vetos, in order to force the government of FYROM to accept something fair for both countries.

[bg_turk]

yeap reading is difficult with this map

in general i agree with alexis and bg_turk
but i would disagree that greece used the past to eathnicly cleanse the greek macedonia. though it did cleance... as i said before it was a common practise at the time and was done by all new formed states (greece and turkey are typical examples that shouldnt make us proud)

sorry I just fixed the pic.
As far as ethnic cleansing is concerned I am afriad the greeks were the first to do it. Before the greek arrival the population was completely mixed, and once greeks invaded the territories of macedonia they cleansed it of all slavs and turks. This has never happened in balkan history before, because the nation states never existed. The practice was later followed by the Turks (in the greco-turkish war) and Bulgaria (for the greek communities in the black sea region). Bulgaria was overwhelmed with refugees at the time. My town used to be purely turkish, but the bulgarians that live here today have origins in places that are now in greece. None of the other balkan countries have undertaken ethnic cleansing at such a massive scale before greece did. Greece set the precedent for that. The slavic history of macedonia was erased, and Greece is still trying to erase it. Makedonia is not greek, it belongs to all of its people.

[Alexis]

As far as ethnic cleansing is concerned I am afriad the greeks were the first to do it. Before the greek arrival the population was completely mixed, and once greeks invaded the territories of macedonia they cleansed it of all slavs and turks. This has never happened in balkan history before, because the nation states never existed. The practice was later followed by the Turks (in the greco-turkish war) and Bulgaria (for the greek communities in the black sea region). Bulgaria was overwhelmed with refugees at the time. My town used to be purely turkish, but the bulgarians that live here today have origins in places that are now in greece. None of the other balkan countries have undertaken ethnic cleansing at such a massive scale before greece did. Greece set the precedent for that. The slavic history of macedonia was erased, and Greece is still trying to erase it. Makedonia is not greek, it belongs to all of its people.

I don't claim to be an expert in the history here, but didn't the majority of the Turks expelled during the 1923 exchange of populations come from Macedonia (Greek Macedonia that is). In which case how can what you're saying be entirely correct? I have no doubt that Greece expelled many Christians who claimed to be Slav after the balkan Wars, but from what I know large scale ethnic cleansing of Turks did not occur until the exchange of populations i.e. about 8 years later. That said, the Greeks were probably the first Balkan country to do this. Turkey then perfected the art.

[bg_turk]

As far as ethnic cleansing is concerned I am afriad the greeks were the first to do it. Before the greek arrival the population was completely mixed, and once greeks invaded the territories of macedonia they cleansed it of all slavs and turks. This has never happened in balkan history before, because the nation states never existed. The practice was later followed by the Turks (in the greco-turkish war) and Bulgaria (for the greek communities in the black sea region). Bulgaria was overwhelmed with refugees at the time. My town used to be purely turkish, but the bulgarians that live here today have origins in places that are now in greece. None of the other balkan countries have undertaken ethnic cleansing at such a massive scale before greece did. Greece set the precedent for that. The slavic history of macedonia was erased, and Greece is still trying to erase it. Makedonia is not greek, it belongs to all of its people.

I don't claim to be an expert in the history here, but didn't the majority of the Turks expelled during the 1923 exchange of populations come from Macedonia (Greek Macedonia that is). In which case how can what you're saying be entirely correct? I have no doubt that Greece expelled many Christians who claimed to be Slav after the balkan Wars, but from what I know large scale ethnic cleansing of Turks did not occur until the exchange of populations i.e. about 8 years later. That said, the Greeks were probably the first Balkan country to do this. Turkey then perfected the art.

The turkish population in the area did not leave at once. It was forced out in several waves. THe first wave occured when the greek army invaded the major cities. The cities were purged of their turkish quaters, it was mainly the turkish iteligentsia that was cleansed, and the majority of turks just left before the greek army had a chance to reach them.
The turkish villages that were outside of the major army routes were unaffected until the population exchange of 1923.

[Alexis]

Ok, that would make sense. Sounds a lot like the Turkification of western Anatolia which started gathering momentum around this time too (probably as a result of the Balkan Wars). The main targets were the intelligentsia and more frequently those who owned businesses and had economic power. This is the most effective form of ethnic cleansing.

[bg_turk]

Ok, that would make sense. Sounds a lot like the Turkification of western Anatolia which started gathering momentum around this time too (probably as a result of the Balkan Wars). The main targets were the intelligentsia and more frequently those who owned businesses and had economic power. This is the most effective form of ethnic cleansing.

Yes, I agree with you. At the time when the balkan states were formed, the Ottoman empire was not a natoin state, the turks had no intention of forming a nation, they mainly united around being muslim and a privileged class in the ottoman empire. But with the huge influx of turkish refugees from the Balkan peninsula, turkish nationalism started to gain momentum and culuminated in the proclamation of the turkish republic by Ataturk (who was a macedonian by the way, born in Thessaloniki). The cost was the tragedy of many greeks who were forced out of their homes. The animosity against the chrisitian minority although completely unjustified, is not hard to explain: the situation was very hard for the turkish state, according to some estimates Turkey was pressed to deal with up to 5 million refugees from the Balkans. Even today every third or second turk in western turkey has ancestral links from somewhere in the Balkans.

[cypezokyli]

i dont think it really matters who started it. one could argue also otherwise but it is not the point.
the fact is that it happened (perhaps even accepted at the time) and the states could just apologise to each other and find ways of not repeating that any more

[bg_turk]

i dont think it really matters who started it. one could argue also otherwise but it is not the point.
the fact is that it happened (perhaps even accepted at the time) and the states could just apologise to each other and find ways of not repeating that any more

That is the way forward for Turkey and Greece, yes!
But why does the Republic of Macedonia have to apolgize to Greece?

[cypezokyli]

FYROM didnot exist at the time so it has nothing to apologise for, when it comes to this matter...its clear isnt it?