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[Alexis]

whether the ancient macedonians considered themselves greeks... u can find all kinds of sources for and against.

in general thouth if they have accepted the greek culture, gods and blabla i guess they were closer to what is called ancient greece rather than to... i dont know ancient persia or babylona.

if they took part in the olympic games shows that not only they considered themselves greeks but also that the rest of the greeks accepted them to take part in the games even before they conquered them.

when it comes to who is the ancestor of alexander...
in general the way i see it... since the greeks accepted (or it was imposed on them ) christianism.. the ancient greek spirit was in any case lost.
........
as for the name of the country
for me they can even call it limassol as far as i am concerned
the only thing that should be agreed upon is that the northern part of greece has also the same name so they should find a way of separating the two. as simple as that.

Well put Cypezokyli

The history of RoM in most of its parts is just propaganda, based on many lies and misconceptions, aimed at strengthening the national identity of the macedonians. For one it is clear that Alecander Makedonski was not a slav. Additionally they are trying to portray the bulgarian king Samuil, as the macedonian who created the first macedonian state, while historical evidence undoubtedly points out that he considered himself as a king of a bulgarian state. But despite the linguisitc and historical problems Bulgaria was amongst the first to recongize RoM indepence, and I do not understand why Greece is so stuck on the name of its neighbour. It is not only greece that has a region called macedonia, to which we refer as Aegean Macedonia, Bulgaria also own Pirnska Macedonia.
Greece should simple stop all of its discriminatory restrictions aainst macedonia, because it does cary a very heavy moral burden country towards that country in terms of what the Greek regime did to the slavs on these territories.

Definitely agree here. Greece should try and resolve the matter.
There shouldn't be any reason why RoM cannot be called Macedonia.
As long as a distinction is made between Greek Macedonia and RoM then Greece should not feel threatened.

[bg_turk]

Definitely agree here. Greece should try and resolve the matter.
There shouldn't be any reason why RoM cannot be called Macedonia.
As long as a distinction is made between Greek Macedonia and RoM then Greece should not feel threatened.

The USA carries the name America, and I cannot really see Canada feeling threatened by that and worrying about making a distinctoin between its own america and the america of the USA. I am afraid to say only greek shauvinist are ready to go at such lengths to defend their pride and history. Eventually it does not matter how proud you are of your ancestors, but how proud they would be of you had they been alive today.

[Alexis]

Alexis wrote:

Definitely agree here. Greece should try and resolve the matter.
There shouldn't be any reason why RoM cannot be called Macedonia.
As long as a distinction is made between Greek Macedonia and RoM then Greece should not feel threatened.

The USA carries the name America, and I cannot really see Canada feeling threatened by that. Does all of Americal belong to the USA?

My main point was that Macedonia should make it clear that she has
no claims on Greek Macedonia, i.e. that she distinguishes between the
two. Notice I have referred to RoM as Macedonia and not FYROM all this while.

[bg_turk]

My main point was that Macedonia should make it clear that she has
no claims on Greek Macedonia, i.e. that she distinguishes between the
two. Notice I have referred to RoM as Macedonia and not FYROM all this while.

Alexis,

we are all mature enough to realize that border changes and seperatism serve no purpose. I am a turk, I happily live in Bulgaria. Kurds live in Turkey, maybe not as happily, but sadly macedonians have been forced out and assimilated from the Greek part of macedonia. I do not deny the greek sovergnity over that territory and I believe the Republic of Macedonia shouldnt either, and as far as I know it has never layed formal claims (on the other hand their national anthem still mentions Sandanski and Goce Delcev which are cities now in Bulgaria).
But I do not support the attitude Greece displays against its own minorities. In the Balkans we just need less nationalism, and the attitude of inciting extreme national pride over the issue that the greek state embraces is not helpful at all. Macedonians have changed their flag and are being asked to change their name, which other state would ever do that? Besides RoM does not pose any threat at all. It is no match for Greece especially in terms of millitary power and its own restive albanian minority. In fact the RoM is on the verge of disintegration at the moment. Another war in the Balkans is I think the last thing we want.

[Alexis]

we are all mature enough to realize that border changes and seperatism serve no purpose. I am a turk, I happily live in Bulgaria. Kurds live in Turkey, maybe not as happily, but sadly macedonians have been forced out and assimilated from the Greek part of macedonia. I do not deny the greek sovergnity over that territory and I believe the Republic of Macedonia shouldnt either, and as far as I know it has never layed formal claims (the national anthem still mentions Sandanski and Goce Delcev which are cities now in Bulgaria).
But I do not support the attitude Greece displays against its own minorities. In the Balkans we just need less nationalism, and the attitude of inciting extreme national pride over the issue that the greek state embraces is not helpful at all. Macedonians have changed their flag and are being asked to change their name, which other state would ever do that? Besides RoM does not pose any threat at all. It is no match for Greece especially in terms of millitary power and its own restive albanian minority. In fact the RoM is on the verge of disintegration at the moment. Another war in the Balkans is I think the last thing we want.

Sure, couldn't agree more. This is, in fact where Greece and Turkey are very similar. Both countries were born out of an ultra-nationalism which assumes a certain degree of superiority. The infamous 'exchange of populations' of 1923 shows us this was the case, people were pidgeon-holed as either one or the other based on their religion. And yes, prior to that, any people who claimed to be Slav were forced out of Greek Macedonia. So what's new there? As a Greek Cypriot I can feel for what has happened in these areas because my people have suffered a similar fate far more recently in what were meant to be more enlightened times.
Both Greece and Turkey need to be more understanding towards their minorities.

[bg_turk]

Here is a map of the ethnic composition of Macedonia and the Balkans in general before the Balkan wars. (It shows Cyprus as totally greek so I guess it may not be the most objective map.) But you can definitely see that a significant portion of aegean macedonia was inhabitted by slavs.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... n_1923.jpg

[bg_turk]

As a Greek Cypriot I can feel for what has happened in these areas because my people have suffered a similar fate far more recently in what were meant to be more enlightened times.

I sympathise with your cause and I do hope that you return to your home.

We must all learn to think like humans first, and there will be no problems any more. Nationlism is the biggest evil for all of us, and it should be abolished. One of the biggest weakness of the people in the regoin is that we are so easily brainwashed by nationalists.

We must eventually learn to celebrate our diversity rather than keeping on hating each other.

[Piratis]

Ok, so we have the Greek name Macedonia and the debate is whether this name belongs to the Greeks or to some Slavs.

The Greeks either have everything to do with the Macedonians (the Macedonians are Greeks) or, if we accept the propaganda of bg_turk, a lot to do with Greeks, but not everything.

The slavs have NOTHING to do with the Macedonians.

So the question is: Should this Greek name belong to the Greeks since Macedonia has either everything or a lot to do with Greece, or to the Slavs that Macedonia has absolutely nothing to do with them?

The answer is obvious.

The Slavs have a long history and a great civilization of their own. I am sure they can find a name that is associated with their own civilization than taking something that is associated with the Greek civilization.

Greece usually doesn't have problem if Greek names are used for areas or cities in other countries. However when they name a country that borders with Greece as "Macedonia" then the probability that this neighboring country will in the future have territory claims over the region of Greece with the same name is great.

Imagine if part of Greece that borders with Turkey was called "Turkey". Wouldn't Turkey claims this part of Greece as their own? And wouldn't everybody that doesn't know history say: "Hey, if thats part is called "Turkey" why does it belong to Greece?".

The same is the case with Macedonia. Wouldn't a country called Macedonia say "Hey, why should that part of Macedonia belong to the Greeks and not to us the Macedonians?"

There are real reasons why Greece doesn't want FYROM to have this name and people should realize it.

[Kifeas]

You go too far Piratis in your expectations.

Greece accepted to recognise a composite name such as Republic of Northwest Macedonia or Republic of Makedonia –Skopije, or Republic of Slavo-Macedonia (what a more logical compromise could ever be,) but the government of Skopje (FYROM) doesn't want to accept it.

The problem is not only historical and /or ethnological but it is also Geographical. The territory of FYROM occupies only a small percentage (less than 20%) of what used to be the greater Macedonia region of either the ancient times or the medieval times. This small portion of greater Macedonia doesn't even contain what used to be the main historic cultural and or political centres (towns) of the historic Macedonia region, neither the ancient not the medieval centres. These centres were either in Southern Greek Macedonia (Vergina, Thessalonica) or in the Northeast Bulgarian Macedonia (Phillipoupolis or Plovtiv.)

Furthermore, setting aside the argument whether the ancient Macedonians were of Greek tribal origin or not, the entire region of medieval Macedonia was an area which was inhabited by a mixture of people from various ethnic and cultural backgrounds, i.e. Greeks, Bulgarians, Slavs, Albanians, Jews, Pomaks and Turkish speaking people (or Turks -to make bg_Turk happier.) All of these people have also identified and continue even today to identify themselves as Macedonians -as a secondary self-identification.

Today's FYROM represents a fraction of the territory of historical Macedonia (not even the centre) and a fraction of the people that used to live in this area, mainly only the descendants of the Slavic and Albanian elements.

In view of all the above historical realities and facts, it is profoundly grossly illogical both from a geographical and a historical perspective, but also from an anthropological /ethnological perspective, for the government of FYROM to insist today to seize and exploit, alone and exclusively, the historical name of ancient and medieval Macedonia.

I believe Greece' proposal for a composite (complex) name, which will also include the term Macedonia, is the most decent and logical one, under the circumstances.

[Kifeas]

Bg_Turk, can you possibly crop or resize the above map as it makes reading of postings in the forum very difficult.
Thanks!