Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Piratis, these ppl are capable to speak one of any turkic dialects and describes themselves as turk, so being a turk is not that difficult. It is not important to look flesh or bones of someone to decide his/her turkicness... So even u can be one of us, just learn a dialect and we will take care the rest of the process:)

So basically their culture and their language makes them who they are. The Macedonians not only used the Greek language and had the Greek culture but they were also spreading the Greek civilization. How can anybody be more Greek than that?

[Piratis]

Bg_turk, the Athenians and the Spartans (and other Greeks) had many wars between them and they used each other as slaves when they were wining a war.

Macedonians are part of the Greek civilization. This is told by themselves because they had spread the Greek civilization. Who are you to doubt what Alexander the Great declared in the most clear way with his actions?

[bg_turk]

Bg_turk, the Athenians and the Spartans (and other Greeks) had many wars between them and they used each other as slaves when they were wining a war.

Macedonians are part of the Greek civilization. This is told by themselves because they had spread the Greek civilization. Who are you to doubt what Alexander the Great declared in the most clear way with his actions?

Lamian War 323-322 is also known as the "Hellenic War" by its protagonists. The Greeks, the Hellenes, were fighting the Macedonians led by Antipater at Lamia.
....
The maladies and defects in the Greek scene of the fourth century were not hard to find. But its great and overriding merit is summed up in the word 'freedom.' With allowance made for the infinite variety promoted by so many independent governments, Greece was still broadly speaking a free country. This freedom was threatened and in the end extinguished by the coming of the great Macedonians.

from Plutarch, "The Age of Alexander"

[bg_turk]

Bg_turk, the Athenians and the Spartans (and other Greeks) had many wars between them and they used each other as slaves when they were wining a war.

Macedonians are part of the Greek civilization. This is told by themselves because they had spread the Greek civilization. Who are you to doubt what Alexander the Great declared in the most clear way with his actions?

Alexander Makedonski was a master of the greeks, he never declared himslef greek, but a proud makedon.

[Piratis]

Bg_Turk, why was he called Alexander (Greek name) and he spread the Greek civilization then? He was Macedonian the same way I am Cypriot. At the same time we are both Greeks.
If he was Bulgarian he would have spread the Bulgarian civilization, if he was Turk he would have spread the Turkish civilization (emm, ok, forget about the last one, it does not exist).

Even the name "Macedonia" is Greek. Others, including you, can say whatever they want. Alexander and the real Macedonians gave the answer to this in the most clear way. You can close your eyes and ears and produce as much propaganda as you like. This will not change the fact that Macedonians are part of the Greek civilization. If they are not, then tell me part of which civilization they are. The Bulgarian or the Slav one?

[cypezokyli]

ehm
i am not really sure that i believe in the continuation of a race...

whether the ancient macedonians considered themselves greeks... u can find all kinds of sources for and against.

in general thouth if they have accepted the greek culture, gods and blabla i guess they were closer to what is called ancient greece rather than to... i dont know ancient persia or babylona.

if they took part in the olympic games shows that not only they considered themselves greeks but also that the rest of the greeks accepted them to take part in the games even before they conquered them.

when it comes to who is the ancestor of alexander...
in general the way i see it... since the greeks accepted (or it was imposed on them ) christianism.. the ancient greek spirit was in any case lost.
........
as for the name of the country
for me they can even call it limassol as far as i am concerned
the only thing that should be agreed upon is that the northern part of greece has also the same name so they should find a way of separating the two. as simple as that.

[Piratis]

Using the same logic Turkey could be renamed to Byzantium and claim that Byzantines were Turks and had nothing to do with Greeks.

[Alexis]

You may recite greek propaganda about the ethnic origin of the macedonians until your mouth goes dry, for all I care this simply will not change the history and facts.

http://faq.macedonia.org/history/ancien ... icity.html

And what you have posted isn't Macedonian propaganda?
I'm not questioning the authenticity of the sources, rather the
way the sources are presented in a selective manner to make
a political popint.

Why politicise this issue? What has Alexander the Great to do with the
the Balkan Wars?

Don't get me wrong bg_turk, I'm not blind to see that Greece has tried to politicise this issue for her aims in recent times.
My main gripe is as to why you go to such lengths to discredit the suggestion that the Ancient Macedonians were not a Hellenized people, in other words did not regard themselves as a Hellenic people. Notice here I have used Hellenic and not Greek as you seem to continually want to link this issue with the current conflicts between Greece and Macedonia.

For me, the following (independent) source as to who the
Ancient Macedonians were sums it up best:

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?met ... acedonians

Notice, how this source evidently takes some of what is said in your sources to form a much more balanced view as to who the Ancient Macedonians were. Try reading also the answers.com description for Ancient Greece:

http://www.answers.com/topic/ancient-greece

This will show you just how mixed the Ancient Greeks were, and also just how blurred the disctinction between Greek and non-Greek was.
Also note the prevalence of war and conflict between the different tribes
and the influences from different conquerors through the years.
It is this variation in influences and the relative openess of the people that made Ancient Greece great and allowed the advancements in all manner of fields (maths, philosophy, science, literature etc..) to occur. Perhaps modern Greece has hi-jacked these exploits to a certain degree. This doesn't mean we should not refer to these ancient peoples as Greeks when they clearly thought of themselves as such.

[RAFAELLA]

Bg_turk, the Athenians and the Spartans (and other Greeks) had many wars between them and they used each other as slaves when they were wining a war.

Macedonians are part of the Greek civilization. This is told by themselves because they had spread the Greek civilization. Who are you to doubt what Alexander the Great declared in the most clear way with his actions?

Alexander Makedonski was a master of the greeks, he never declared himslef greek, but a proud makedon.

I wonder why a person would doubt so strongly the Greekness of Alexander the Great? Due to his origin maybe?

ALEXANDER THE GREAT:
"For I (Alexander I) myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery." (Herod. IX, 45, 2 [Loeb])

"Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy (Alexander I) of Macedonia has received you hospitably."
(Herod. V, 20, 4 [Loeb])

ANCIENT QUOTES:
" ... all men will be grateful to you: the Hellenes for your kindness to them and the rest of the nations, if by your hands they are delivered from barbaric despotism and are brought under the protection of Hellas."
(Isoc., To Philip, 154 [Loeb])

Polybius:
"How highly should we honor the Macedonians, who for the greater part of their lives never cease from fighting with the barbarians for the sake of the security of Greece? For who is not aware that Greece would have constantly stood in the greater danger, had we not been fenced by the Macedonians and the honorable ambition of their kings?"
(Pol. Hist., IX, 35, 2 [Loeb])

...and you are right bg_turk, Alexander is world wide known as Alexander Makedonski and not as Alexander the Great LOL

[bg_turk]

cyprezokyli,

I fully agree with your evaluation although I still think Alexander Makedonski is perceived as greek only because it is convenient for greeks that he is. To be honest I do not care what ethnic oriign a man that lived several thousands of years ago had, idealistically it should hardly matter today. But of course if Greece uses the macedonian heritage as a justification to ethnically cleanse a whole region of its inhabitants because they are slavs this matters a lot! and this is what greece has being doing and is still doing by refusing to recognize the independence of RoM.

As far as I am concerned Macedonia is just the name of a region which is divided into three parts between Bulgaria, Greece and RoM. Likewise Thrace is a region which is divided between Bulgaria, Greece and TUrkey.
I can call myself a trhacian because i live in Thrace, and macedonians (inhabitants of Macedonia) regardless of their ethnicity should be allowed to call themselves macedonian. The Republic of Macedonia is exclusively in Macedonia, and it does have the right to carry that name if it so chooses.

The history of RoM in most of its parts is just propaganda, based on many lies and misconceptions, aimed at strengthening the national identity of the macedonians. For one it is clear that Alecander Makedonski was not a slav. Additionally they are trying to portray the bulgarian king Samuil, as the macedonian who created the first macedonian state, while historical evidence undoubtedly points out that he considered himself as a king of a bulgarian state. But despite the linguisitc and historical problems Bulgaria was amongst the first to recongize RoM indepence, and I do not understand why Greece is so stuck on the name of its neighbour. It is not only greece that has a region called macedonia, to which we refer as Aegean Macedonia, Bulgaria also own Pirnska Macedonia.
Greece should simply stop all of its discriminatory restrictions against macedonia, because it does cary a very heavy moral burden towards that country in terms of what the Greek regime did to the slavs on these territories.