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PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby cypezokyli » Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:20 pm

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Postby bg_turk » Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:43 pm

cypezokyli wrote:sorry only for greek speakers

http://www.enet.gr/online/online_fpage_ ... 6,21226064

what are these people protesting?
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Postby Sotos » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:32 pm

What is said in the banner is "Macedonians are only Greeks". I guess they are protesting against the use of the "Macedonia" name by FYROM.
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Postby bg_turk » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:56 pm

Sotos wrote:What is said in the banner is "Macedonians are only Greeks". I guess they are protesting against the use of the "Macedonia" name by FYROM.

thanks for the translation.
Personally I believe that the Republic of Macedonia should be allowed to choose whatever name it likes.
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Postby RAFAELLA » Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:18 am

bg_turk wrote:
Sotos wrote:What is said in the banner is "Macedonians are only Greeks". I guess they are protesting against the use of the "Macedonia" name by FYROM.

thanks for the translation.
Personally I believe that the Republic of Macedonia should be allowed to choose whatever name it likes.


Fyromians can choose whatever name they want as long as it is not stolen from another nation and especially a name which is related with thousands of years of greek history.
Why they don't call their country Slavinia/Slava/Slavia since they are Slavs?

ADMISSIONS BY FYROMIANS:
* The former President of The FYROM, Kiro Gligorov said: “We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" (Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35).

Also, Mr Gligorov declared: "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia… Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" (Toronto Star, March 15, 1992).

**On 24 February 1999, in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented, “There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country."

What's in a Name? - In a name you have identity, history, ancestry, culture, ethnicity, belonging, cohesiveness, texture, color, and many other qualities. And, it is in the Macedonian names, which those in The FYROM now want to claim as their own, where one of the greatest proofs of the GREEKNESS of Macedonia lies. Here are some of countless examples:
MACEDONIAN = GREEK for "the tall one"
AMYNTAS (father of Philip) = GREEK for "defender"
PHILIPPOS (Philip) = GREEK for "one who loves the horse"
ALEXANDROS (Alexander) = GREEK for "the protector of man"
BUCEPHALUS (Alexander's beloved horse with a large head)= GREEK for "ox-like head "
ARISTOTLE (Alexander's teacher) = GREEK for "the best and perfect one"
THESSALONIKI = GREEK for "victory over the Thessalians"

By Bill Gatzoulis
With historical assistance from Marcus Templar


http://www.macedonia.info/name.htm
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Postby bg_turk » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:41 am

Any decent historians will tell you that macedonians were not greek. They may have adopted and spread hellenism, but they were considered barbarians, and they were ethnically very different from greeks, they spoke a different language.

Of course ancient macedonians were not slavs either, but since they were not greek, then I cannot understand why you think you have a greater right to lay claim on their history more than the slavic macedonians.

The cyrilic alphabet originated from Solun from the brothers St. Cyrill and St Methodius, the first slavic schools were built in Ohrid, so Makedonia is an unalienable part of the slavic history. And the Republic of Macedonia has the right to carry this name.

Besides ever since ancient times makedonia the region has been predominanlty slavic before it was ethnically cleansed by the greek state.

In short the Republic of Makedonia should be and will be recognized by its constitutional name! Freedom will prevail over greek shauvinism.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:19 pm

Ok, whats next? Bulgaria will say that they want to be called Greece?

Claiming the achievements and culture of another civilization is not part of "freedom". The freedom of stealing does not exist. Macedonians were part of the Greek civilization and this is undeniable. Why would these people have Greek names and spread the Greek civilization if they were not Greeks?

By the way Bg_turk. Are Turkish Cypriots really Turkish? if yes, why?
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Postby cypezokyli » Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:58 pm

due to lack of time i ll try to give a short translation of the article. in general these guys are greek left-wing and quite well documented. moreover they present a series of mistakes of the greek foreign policy and they are in the position to say we make mistakes... its not the fault of others.

so according to the article:
myth 1: the name macedonian its a creation of tito in 1944
in general the term macedonian greek and macedonian bulgarian was used by the people in the region in the late 1800s and was accepted by the greek propaganda machine

myth 2: the lands which belong today to FYROM are outside of the historic macedonia.

actually the whole FYROM is a part of philips macedonia. the distinction between geographic macedonia and historic was a greation of the greek minstry of foreign affairs

myth 3: the actual name of FYROM is vardanska banovina(excuse me for my bad knowledge of slavic language :)
in reality that name was used only for 12 years under the yugoslavian state (1929-1941)

myth 4: Naming our north neighbours "macedonia" it implies land demands against the greek macedonia
actually any land demands made by bulgaria or titos yugoslavia were always based on the slavic minorities living in northern greece rather than names. greece also demanded land in the northen borders using also an aceeptable argument at the time of seeking fertile land.

today land demands are considered unacceptable according to international laws

myth 5: the (non-real) relationship of the slav-macedonians with the ancient maceonians is sth created in the last 15 years

in reality the supposed connection between the slav-macedonians and the ancient ones was a quite popular propaganda of the greek foreign office in the early 19th century


a complete different situation is the symbol of the "sun of vergina" as a national symbol of FYROM in 1992. it was clear from the very beggining that is was a diplomatic trick created for future bargain by the FYROM goverment. this is proven by the easiness by which it was changed in 1995 but also from the forseeing of the FYROM goverment of the failure of that attempt which used a different sun when it produced coins already from 1993

myth 6: the greek ministry of foreign affaires ignored the subject for over half a century
actually it has been always an important subject, and a number of things agreed never came to people due to a patriotic autocencorship

myth 7 the goverment of fyrom has been consatntly not willing to negotiate
actually the greek govermant rejected first all proposed names in the period of 1992-93 (new-macedonia, north-macednia..etc)

myth 8: the nationalist parties in FYROM are a direct danger to the security and integrity of greece
the existance of nationalist in everycountry is not sth surprising.
if they pose a real danger though, is a completely different story

in the case of FYROM a lot of discussion went on about the party of BMPO which at the time was the second biggest. actually BMPO was already contacting the greek secret services in 1992

when in 1998 BMPO came to power it was giving in even more than its predecessors (selling strategic industries to the greeek capitalists)
(my comment: is it always that nationalists- the ones who shout the most- are the first ones to betray their land? :)

there is still ofcource a problem when it comes to nationalist comments in the history books. for solving the problem in general in the balkan region there exists already a comitee which tries to eliminate the preaching of hate in history books. ofcource the work of the committee assumes absence of tension betwen the countries


myth 9. in FYROM lives a significant greek minority
in any case it is a myth :)

myth 10. the position of the greek goverment was absolutely giving in and not fighting enough

actually greece in the beggining (1992), didnt mind and actually discussed the idea of destrying the new formed state
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Postby cypezokyli » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:05 pm

my personal experience when meeting with a fyromian or macedonian was the following:
it was a group of people from cyprus greece bulgaria fyrom :) kroatia and poland. we cooked giahni(a) and the connecting liknk was ofcource brecovics music.

an obseravtion was that the bulgarian and the macedonian(fyromian) could perfectly communicate despite the fact the have lets say.. different languages. to be honest i am not surprised. if we would have a rise of cypriot nationalism we could just name the cypriot dialekt a language and be happy with it.
its not that difficult to create a language
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Postby bg_turk » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:13 pm

cyprezokyli,

thank you very much for the translation. i agree with most of the points raised in that article.

By the way Bulgaria too has outstanding conflicts with Macedonia. In our case we do not recognize macedonian as a seperate language, and claim it is a dialect of bulgarian.
I personally believe macedonians have the right to call their country and language whatever they like. Macedonia is unique in the sense that it is such a mixture of nationalities and ethnicities, and it used to be even more mixed before nationalist greeks, bulgarians and serbians managed to assimilate and cleanse their respective parts of the territory. I think we should rather concentrate on preserving macedonias mutliethnic heritagre, rather than being stuck on historical, linguistic and nationalistic arguments. I think Macedonia is only one and it should belong to everyone. My romanian friend, used to have some vlac ancestors who lived in macedonia - isnt this amazing :-).

Piratis,
as far as your stealing arguments are concerned, I would just quote Viewpoint, and say that you have to change the record. Your anti-stealing anti-thief and everything-belongs-to-us we-greeks-are-superior type of rights culture is just going too far. Macedonia is not only assoicated with ancient macedonia, it is the name of the region which was predominantly slavic ever since medieaval times, and would have still bean but for your motherland.
I do not get your final question. Turkish Cypriots are both Cypriot and Turkish, as far as I understand the two are not mutually exclusive.
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