Cyprus-Forum.com

[kimon07]

harding proposals were for self goverment not self determination and would still be under the british yoke ie northen ireland

The "joke" of the self government would be for specifically defined period and self determination would be granted after the expiration of it. Our mistake was that we insisted on immediate self determination.

[kimon07]

You’re just an attention seeking little Greek whore ........

Devastating argument, as usual.

[Bananiot]

Kimon, Makarios hinted at the time that he could go along with Harding and he got the wrath of AKEL, the only organised political party at the time. I agree with your thesis

the self government would be for specifically defined period and self determination would be granted after the expiration of it. Our mistake was that we insisted on immediate self determination

but we need to be frank here too. Self determination at the time was synonymous with enosis. AKEL was the staunchest proponent of enosis and in order to thwart Makarios it organised massive and loud demonstrations in all parts of Cyprus, even calling Makarios a traitor. I was only 5 at the time and I remember vividly my father took me to one such demonstration in Famagusta. British commandos (red caps we used to call them) tried to disperse the demonstrators and a couple of them managed to corner one demonstrator who seemed to be a leader (Demos, they called him). But Demos was a strong young man, really massive and masculine. I will never forget the scene. He took the two commandos by the scruff of the neck and started banging them together. An awful sight. I saw Demos two years ago and we had a long chat. He is nearing 80 but he is still physically impressive. He told me that imperialism brought the disaster to Cyprus. In 1974 he emigrated to the US with his family and he was a truck driver. He was also a strong-willed person. He would stop the truck get out and clear the snow-covered road signs to find his way around!

Anyway, I got carried away with the story but I thought I would share it with you. In a nutshell, what I am trying to say is that during the historical times of the Cyprus issue, all parties made huge mistakes that have cost us dearly. The essence is that we should learn from the mistakes and being a pragmatist, it does not escape my attention the fact that every time we tried to behave like big fish, we paid a hefty price. It is a tough world out there and the rules of the game always favour the strong in clout, not moral and other "soft" values.

[boulio]

The "joke" of the self government would be for specifically defined period and self determination would be granted after the expiration of it. Our mistake was that we insisted on immediate self determination.

says who?the british self determination would have been granted when the island would not be needed by great britain as we see today they still need it.

[kimon07]

Anyway, I got carried away with the story but I thought I would share it with you. In a nutshell, what I am trying to say is that during the historical times of the Cyprus issue, all parties made huge mistakes that have cost us dearly. ............it does not escape my attention the fact that every time we tried to behave like big fish, we paid a hefty price.

I agree with everything (except one point below) in your last post and especially with the last par. above. In fact, the history of Cyprus since the 50s is one of continuous mistakes from our side. And falling from one trap set by the Brits into the other, including the first and worse of them all, which was the acceptance of the trilateral conference which involved Turkey as a player to the solution for the first time. Up until then the issue was just an English-Greek affair and it should be kept us such and Makarios should not had pressed the Greek Government (Marshial Papagos Premiere at the time) to apply to the UN against Britain.
And indeed, every time we were starting new negotiations the odds were always worse than before. I do not agree, though that we paid a hefty price because we tried to behave like big fish. We simply did not ever played our cards right and we never took advantage of favorable opportunities when presented to us.
I recommend to you the book of Pandazis Terlexis "The Anatomy of a Mistake, diplomacy and politics of the Cyprus Problem". I have the 1971 edition. I do not know if it was translated in English, but if you could participate to demonstrations in Limassol back then, I am sure your Greek should be holding good. Unless you did not attend gymnasium
While you was demonstrating in Limassol, I was watching from my balcony the "battle" of the students of the Central Gymnasium of Lefkosia against the British troops and the TC "auxiliaries". I was also in elementary during that period. And I also remember the paratroopers (red berets) coming in our houses to conduct searches for arms etc. And dragging us out of our classes (even elementary school kids) at gun point searching for EOKA leaflets.

[kimon07]

The "joke" of the self government would be for specifically defined period and self determination would be granted after the expiration of it. Our mistake was that we insisted on immediate self determination.

says who?the british self determination would have been granted when the island would not be needed by great britain as we see today they still need it.

Like I said. The initial proposal was for a specific date of self determination (i.e. referendum).
It later changed to an undefined period, depending on the "stabilization of the situation" on the island.
This latest version was aiming exactly at what you say.

[Bananiot]

Actually, it was Famagusta, not Limassol. I have not read the book you mentioned but I agree about Papagos. He strongly urged Makarios to sit quite (Greece, he told him, breaths with two lungs, one British and one American) but Makarios, stubborn as a mule, insisted on internationalising the Cyprus issue by asking Greece to take it to the UN. He even threatened to ask a third world country to do so (Egypt perhaps) if Greece kept refusing. He organised massive rallies in Athens, until the government caved in, in the face of populist demands that went well with the crowd. The Brits wanted to preserve their foothold in the strategically and economically important south east Med. We should have taken seriously their interests and we should have also been concerned about the TC's. Instead, we went like a menacing bull straight for the tip of the sword. The people who maintain even today that it was our indisputable right to want union and only union with Greece, are the same fools who destroyed Cyprus by behaving as though we are the chosen few who can get whatever we ask.

[kimon07]

I agree about Papagos. He strongly urged Makarios to sit quite (Greece, he told him, breaths with two lungs, one British and one American)..

Wasn't Plastiras who said that? I will check it out.

As for going after what you think you deserve. Not wrong at all. It is the tactics you follow that count and your ability to manoeuvre when necessary and not go head on to the stone wall. Find ways to make it collapse or go around it. Or persuade them that YOUR interest is also THEIRS.

[Viewpoint]

I agree about Papagos. He strongly urged Makarios to sit quite (Greece, he told him, breaths with two lungs, one British and one American)..

Wasn't Plastiras who said that? I will check it out.

As for going after what you think you deserve. Not wrong at all. It is the tactics you follow that count and your ability to manoeuvre when necessary and not go head on to the stone wall. Find ways to make it collapse or go around it. Or persuade them that YOUR interest is also THEIRS.

So we are going for what we think we deserve, is that OK?

[Bananiot]

Let's get it straight. George Papandreou said what I quoted previously when the Mayor of Nicosia Themistoklis Dervis went to see him at the beginning of 1950. Plastiras, who was the Prime Minister of Greece in 1951 told Makarios "if you came to my humble hut and asked me to go and fight for Cyprus, I would gladly do so because I am a soldier. But, you have come to the office of the Prime minister and you are asking me to burn Greece, without being able to offer anything to Cyprus. Sit tight, your beatitude..." ( read more in "Ο Λαϊκισμός στα Εθνικά μας Θέματα" του Ευστάθιου Λαγάκου)