Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

Well, any response to Lordo's last comment?

It’s a very simple matter…

If he is unable to bring himself round to condemn the illegally occupied territory (which clearly equates to Taksim) then he has exposed himself as a Taksim supporter and liar.

Exactly what I accused him of…

[Piratis]

beyond it would not surprise me if one of the PIGS did not leave first, or rather is invited to leave as the rest of Europe gets fed up with the repeated bail-outs,

There are two things wrong with this statement. Firstly, there is no legal mechanism by which a member of the EU can be "invited" to leave the EU. Secondly, Greece’s eurozone partners are lending this money, not gifting it.

In other words, those contributing to the "bail-outs" are making a profit on their investment and the majority of their money is being returned to European banks that have in the past bought Greek bonds. These banks are mainly German and French Banks which would collapse without these "bail-outs" because they lent recklessly and are technically insolvent as a result.

See the following
http://www.incyprus.com.cy/en-gb/Cyprus/4170/24731/euro-exit-warning
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8990974/Greece-out-of-euro-if-bail-out-fails.html

I suspect that if anything the French and German Governments will let Greece go to the wall but bail out their banks. I am, also sure a way can be found to ease someone out of the EU, evenn if new laws have to be created.

I think this shows how bad Enosis would have been for Cyprus: indeed apart from some vague arguements about security no one has yet demonstrated in what way Enosis would have benefited the averge Cypriot Citizen: I would go so far as to say that it was the call for Enosis and attampts to implement it that undermined the security of Cyprus since it ultimately lead to the events of 1963/74 and in particular to the Invasion on 1974, where the Greeks, having invaded and provoked the Turkish Invasion then effectively abandoned Cyprus to theTurkish invaders.

I stand by my thesis that Enosis would have turned Cyprus into an economic backwater.

Rhodes, the 3rd biggest Greek island, which also had a Muslim/Turkish minority and is just a few kilometers from Turkey, united with the rest of Greece in 1947.

Crete, the 2nd biggest Greek island, which also had a Muslim/Turkish minority, united with the rest of Greece in 1913.

Today there is no Rhodes Problem or Crete Problem, but there is a Cyprus Problem. We are talking about 1/3rd of our island occupied by Turks and 100s of thousands of refuges, a problem far bigger and far more difficult to truly resolve than any temporary financial crisis.

If Cyprus was allowed to unite with the rest of Greece in the 50s or even earlier as the Cypriot people wanted, then there wouldn't be any problems in the 60s, 70s or today. But the British instead of respecting the wishes of the Cypriot people they instead enlisted the help of Turks to help them oppress our revolution for freedom. What created the problem was not enosis (otherwise Rhodes and Crete would have the same problem) but the refusal of the British to allow enosis and their collaboration with the Turks as the means of stopping enosis from happening so that the British could maintain bases and control over Cyprus.

[Get Real!]

I’m not sure where to put this and it’s not worth a dedicated thread other than a mention…

Kenan Evren indicted for 1980 coup

http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20120103 ... y_military

NB: He is the one that overthrew the Ecevit government and incarcerated Ecevit for some years (Not that he was doing Cyprus any favors).

[Sotos]

My commitment is to the Cypriot people to live under a united island in a united country. How ever that does not mean a single zone. There are too many people on both sides who do not wish to live in one zone. Some have a lot of economic and political power to take the single zone back to 1963.

I see no problem with the Cypriots mvong into a single zone government at some point in the future when all the Cypriots are ready. However force it now and we will end up with two states.

As to TRNC it is irrelevent today. The talks and what they would lead to is far more important.

I do not seek the help or good will from anybody xcept to respect the political decision of both communities. Cypriots should be good at maths. When you have fractions to add up we have to use the lowest common denominator. It applies equally here. You cannot force the TCs to do anything against their will. They have shown their good intensions in 2004 and all they got was a slap in the face. They may not be so generous next time.

"TC" are basically Turkish Settlers from the first Turkish invasion. We have shown our good intentions to accept "TCs" as equal Cypriots but you are too greedy and you want more. So we are not going to be generous anymore. You will be kept isolated and one good day you will be send back to your homeland. You created the problem coming to our island uninvited and the problem will be solved when you go back to where you came from.

[B25]

Soto, now you are really going to upset Banana with that comment.

[supporttheunderdog]

beyond it would not surprise me if one of the PIGS did not leave first, or rather is invited to leave as the rest of Europe gets fed up with the repeated bail-outs,

There are two things wrong with this statement. Firstly, there is no legal mechanism by which a member of the EU can be "invited" to leave the EU. Secondly, Greece’s eurozone partners are lending this money, not gifting it.

In other words, those contributing to the "bail-outs" are making a profit on their investment and the majority of their money is being returned to European banks that have in the past bought Greek bonds. These banks are mainly German and French Banks which would collapse without these "bail-outs" because they lent recklessly and are technically insolvent as a result.

See the following
http://www.incyprus.com.cy/en-gb/Cyprus/4170/24731/euro-exit-warning
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8990974/Greece-out-of-euro-if-bail-out-fails.html

I suspect that if anything the French and German Governments will let Greece go to the wall but bail out their banks. I am, also sure a way can be found to ease someone out of the EU, evenn if new laws have to be created.

I think this shows how bad Enosis would have been for Cyprus: indeed apart from some vague arguments about security no one has yet demonstrated in what way Enosis would have benefited the average Cypriot Citizen: I would go so far as to say that it was the call for Enosis and attempts to implement it that undermined the security of Cyprus since it ultimately lead to the events of 1963/74 and in particular to the Invasion on 1974, where the Greeks, having invaded and provoked the Turkish Invasion then effectively abandoned Cyprus to the Turkish invaders.

I stand by my thesis that Enosis would have turned Cyprus into an economic backwater.

Rhodes, the 3rd biggest Greek island, which also had a Muslim/Turkish minority and is just a few kilometers from Turkey, united with the rest of Greece in 1947.

Crete, the 2nd biggest Greek island, which also had a Muslim/Turkish minority, united with the rest of Greece in 1913.

Today there is no Rhodes Problem or Crete Problem, but there is a Cyprus Problem. We are talking about 1/3rd of our island occupied by Turks and 100s of thousands of refuges, a problem far bigger and far more difficult to truly resolve than any temporary financial crisis.

If Cyprus was allowed to unite with the rest of Greece in the 50s or even earlier as the Cypriot people wanted, then there wouldn't be any problems in the 60s, 70s or today. But the British instead of respecting the wishes of the Cypriot people they instead enlisted the help of Turks to help them oppress our revolution for freedom. What created the problem was not enosis (otherwise Rhodes and Crete would have the same problem) but the refusal of the British to allow enosis and their collaboration with the Turks as the means of stopping enosis from happening so that the British could maintain bases and control over Cyprus.

What happened in 1913 and 1947 was then: The situation was was very different in 1955. In 1913 you had a regime that was in state of collapse and where Crete had been effectively removed from Ottoman Control some years earlier, through great power intervention. in 1947 Turkey, which despite being neutral for most of the war had suffered hardship due to the effects on trade, was facing threats from Russia and did not want to upset Nato by vetoing the transfer of Rhodes from Italy to Greece. However by 1955 Turkey was well underway in building its military strength and for its own military geopolitical reasons was not going to allow enosis. They were not going to give Greece a base that would allow them to dominate their southern coast.

Read this:

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/Davidcarter/againstconspiracy/againstconspiracy.html

In any event you dodge the issue: Crete (and Greece generally) probably remains relatively poor compared to Cyprus: I understand average wages are possibly two to three times higher and Cyprus only has the wealth it has today because it is independent. Cypriots (Greek Cypriots in particular ) are probably richer as a result. I believe that without the independence any such wealth, if had been generated in the first place in a Cyprus unified with Greece would have ended up in Athens , not in Cyprus. For starters so much administration would be done from Athens, both in the Government and private sectors and so many of the office jobs would never have existed: what would be left would be a limited amount of clerical work, some light industry, possibly even less than there is now, but mostly agriculture and Tourism and associated jobs which are not good payers. The young go getters would get up and go in even bigger numbers.

Cypriots would otherwise be competing against every other part of Greece for the roads and hospitals and schools, etc.

Makarios was therefore wise to give up on Enosis, particularly if he realised it would result in what happened in 1974 when Greece and then Turkey invaded.

[Lordo]

So when exactly did he give it up? What did he say and where?

[humanist]

Enosis has not happened because the majority of the good people of cyprus did not want ti to happen. End of story . The only people who raise the issue of enosis today are those people who live in the past, who have no other arguments to put forth and fall back on the enosis to create dramas.

Now there is a different threat of enosis and that is the TC want to Enosis with Turkey. Funny how Downer don't see that. Or may be he does and that is his aim.

[Bananiot]

The majority of the good people of Cyprus wanted enosis to happen. This is part of the reason why we ended up where we are now. There was a time when even AKEL criticised Makarios harshly for not pushing hard enough for enosis. Isn't it about time we started learning the true history of this island?

[Piratis]

beyond it would not surprise me if one of the PIGS did not leave first, or rather is invited to leave as the rest of Europe gets fed up with the repeated bail-outs,

There are two things wrong with this statement. Firstly, there is no legal mechanism by which a member of the EU can be "invited" to leave the EU. Secondly, Greece’s eurozone partners are lending this money, not gifting it.

In other words, those contributing to the "bail-outs" are making a profit on their investment and the majority of their money is being returned to European banks that have in the past bought Greek bonds. These banks are mainly German and French Banks which would collapse without these "bail-outs" because they lent recklessly and are technically insolvent as a result.

See the following
http://www.incyprus.com.cy/en-gb/Cyprus/4170/24731/euro-exit-warning
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8990974/Greece-out-of-euro-if-bail-out-fails.html

I suspect that if anything the French and German Governments will let Greece go to the wall but bail out their banks. I am, also sure a way can be found to ease someone out of the EU, evenn if new laws have to be created.

I think this shows how bad Enosis would have been for Cyprus: indeed apart from some vague arguments about security no one has yet demonstrated in what way Enosis would have benefited the average Cypriot Citizen: I would go so far as to say that it was the call for Enosis and attempts to implement it that undermined the security of Cyprus since it ultimately lead to the events of 1963/74 and in particular to the Invasion on 1974, where the Greeks, having invaded and provoked the Turkish Invasion then effectively abandoned Cyprus to the Turkish invaders.

I stand by my thesis that Enosis would have turned Cyprus into an economic backwater.

Rhodes, the 3rd biggest Greek island, which also had a Muslim/Turkish minority and is just a few kilometers from Turkey, united with the rest of Greece in 1947.

Crete, the 2nd biggest Greek island, which also had a Muslim/Turkish minority, united with the rest of Greece in 1913.

Today there is no Rhodes Problem or Crete Problem, but there is a Cyprus Problem. We are talking about 1/3rd of our island occupied by Turks and 100s of thousands of refuges, a problem far bigger and far more difficult to truly resolve than any temporary financial crisis.

If Cyprus was allowed to unite with the rest of Greece in the 50s or even earlier as the Cypriot people wanted, then there wouldn't be any problems in the 60s, 70s or today. But the British instead of respecting the wishes of the Cypriot people they instead enlisted the help of Turks to help them oppress our revolution for freedom. What created the problem was not enosis (otherwise Rhodes and Crete would have the same problem) but the refusal of the British to allow enosis and their collaboration with the Turks as the means of stopping enosis from happening so that the British could maintain bases and control over Cyprus.

What happened in 1913 and 1947 was then: The situation was was very different in 1955. In 1913 you had a regime that was in state of collapse and where Crete had been effectively removed from Ottoman Control some years earlier, through great power intervention. in 1947 Turkey, which despite being neutral for most of the war had suffered hardship due to the effects on trade, was facing threats from Russia and did not want to upset Nato by vetoing the transfer of Rhodes from Italy to Greece. However by 1955 Turkey was well underway in building its military strength and for its own military geopolitical reasons was not going to allow enosis. They were not going to give Greece a base that would allow them to dominate their southern coast.

Read this:

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/Davidcarter/againstconspiracy/againstconspiracy.html

In any event you dodge the issue: Crete (and Greece generally) probably remains relatively poor compared to Cyprus: I understand average wages are possibly two to three times higher and Cyprus only has the wealth it has today because it is independent. Cypriots (Greek Cypriots in particular ) are probably richer as a result. I believe that without the independence any such wealth, if had been generated in the first place in a Cyprus unified with Greece would have ended up in Athens , not in Cyprus. For starters so much administration would be done from Athens, both in the Government and private sectors and so many of the office jobs would never have existed: what would be left would be a limited amount of clerical work, some light industry, possibly even less than there is now, but mostly agriculture and Tourism and associated jobs which are not good payers. The young go getters would get up and go in even bigger numbers.

Cypriots would otherwise be competing against every other part of Greece for the roads and hospitals and schools, etc.

Makarios was therefore wise to give up on Enosis, particularly if he realised it would result in what happened in 1974 when Greece and then Turkey invaded.

We had been asking for enosis long before 1955, but still, nothing was much different from 1947 to 1955. The only difference is that Cyprus had the bad luck of being under the British instead of under the Italians as was the case with Rhodes. The British did not want to leave from Cyprus and they did everything they could, including partnering with the Turks, in order to prevent Cyprus from being free so they could continue serving their interests on our island. This is a fact which has never been a secret. The British have directly and in a very clear way said that they would never leave from Cyprus. (and this continues to be the case today)

A REAL independence would be far better than anything else. But it was obvious from the beginning that small Cyprus could not be independent. Either we would be in a united state together with all other Greeks or we would be isolated and under the rule of the British and the Turks who would continue to violate our rights as they had done for centuries. Unfortunately the second happened, and the result is the Cyprus Problem.

You are wrong about Cyprus having 2-3 times the wages of Crete. This is not the case even today that Greece is in the worst kind of crisis. If there are differences in wages those are small and I am sure the Cretans would not agree to slightly higher wages in exchange with having 1/3rd of their island occupied by Turkey and 1/3rd of their population ethnically cleansed.