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Question about some details when building a house

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Re: Question about some details when building a house

Postby supporttheunderdog » Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:51 am

johbee wrote:I've been involved in the construction of many houses. I currently live in a big old stone built house in Limassol. When I renovated and built on to it I put the provision for central heating, but I never installed it since I also put split units in every room. I simply use the split units for hearing and cooling. The provisions for central heating were a complete waste of money. I am now building a summer house where I will only put split units. Of course if you are up in the mountains you may choose to go with central heating, but let's face it: It doesn't get that cold in Limassol. My advice would be not to waste your money on central heating or such extravagance as geothermal. Very expensive. I will probably put some solar panels to help with he electric, but even the cost for these is over the top and will take many, many years to recover the initial investment.


geothermal can include a simple Air-earth heat exchanger, which consists mostly of an air-pipe from between 20 to 50 m in total length up to say 600m diameter buried at the lowest end at least 3 m down, where ground temperature is fairly constant: the intake is normally situlated in a well shaded area (behind a north facing wall): the larger the pipe the better the surface area and the slower the airflowf or better cooling .

The air is ducted into the house: one can either have closed loop system where the air is recirculated or an open system where the the air is then extracted, using something like a solar chimney - ie large diameter pipe in a sunny loaction, possibly painted black to warm the top, to induce an updraught. With a suitably baffled system one can have both.

Not sure what the underground temperature at about 3m depth is in Limassol, but bearing in mind that at that depth it does not change much in the year the temperature of admitted air should pretty constant and there could be cooling in summer and warming in winter.
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Re: Question about some details when building a house

Postby Sotos » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:43 pm

Get Real! wrote:I installed a reverse cycle air conditioning system (ducts in the ceilings) with zone controls, and never looked back.

You get clean, silent, and instant air conditioning that also looks good!


Can you tell me how exactly is your air conditioning system different than the usual?
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Re: Question about some details when building a house

Postby Get Real! » Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:51 pm

Sotos wrote:
Get Real! wrote:I installed a reverse cycle air conditioning system (ducts in the ceilings) with zone controls, and never looked back.

You get clean, silent, and instant air conditioning that also looks good!


Can you tell me how exactly is your air conditioning system different than the usual?

Basically, you use a single powerful 3-phase compressor (usually 60,000 to 80,000 btu) p/floor and the layout for temperature distribution occurs as in the pictures below…

http://ahwair.com.au/images/ducted-air-con-plan.jpg
http://www.airdirect.net.au/images/rc.gif
http://fairair.net.au/html/images/lofty ... ioning.gif
http://www.glenelgair.com.au/images/house.jpg
http://www.bonaire.com.au/lib/images/co ... leGen1.jpg

In my case…

Ground floor: (Compressor #1) this floor is an open plan (no doors or walls) so no zone control is needed. One control on the wall sets the temp setting etc for the whole area.

Upstairs: (Compressor #2) this floor is bedroom area so zone controls are necessary so each room has a small digital panel on the wall next to the light switch with which you can set the room temperature or via remote.

Basement: This system cannot be used for the basement because you need a rooftop in which to install all the paraphernalia so I just use a personal fan and heater here as required.
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Re: Question about some details when building a house

Postby Get Real! » Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:02 pm

I’ll expand here a little for Sotos…

NB: Since we have 3-phase power to accommodate a powerful air conditioning system, we can now manage the power for the rest of the house…

Phase #1: The air conditioning system.

Phase #2: The ovens, hot plates, washing machine, dishwasher, hot water system, etc.

Phase #3: All lighting and every other power socket.

If one phase is down the others still work with no problem. Advantages in power, efficiency, economy, management, and wider choice of products can be used.
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Re: Question about some details when building a house

Postby Sotos » Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:38 pm

Thanks GR. When you say "zone control" can you actually set the temperature different in each room? What benefits does this system have from the usual split units?
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Re: Question about some details when building a house

Postby johbee » Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:31 pm

Get Real! wrote:I’ll expand here a little for Sotos…

NB: Since we have 3-phase power to accommodate a powerful air conditioning system, we can now manage the power for the rest of the house…

Phase #1: The air conditioning system.

Phase #2: The ovens, hot plates, washing machine, dishwasher, hot water system, etc.

Phase #3: All lighting and every other power socket.

If one phase is down the others still work with no problem. Advantages in power, efficiency, economy, management, and wider choice of products can be used.


You cannot have one phase down. It's all or nothing. If your house is wired as you say you should contact a qualified electrician. Using three phase should balance the loads on all phases. What you have just described i.e. all the lights( a low load) on one phase and appliances on another phase is dead wrong.

http://www.soundfirst.com/3_Phase_Power.html
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Re: Question about some details when building a house

Postby Get Real! » Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:05 pm

johbee wrote:
Get Real! wrote:I’ll expand here a little for Sotos…

NB: Since we have 3-phase power to accommodate a powerful air conditioning system, we can now manage the power for the rest of the house…

Phase #1: The air conditioning system.

Phase #2: The ovens, hot plates, washing machine, dishwasher, hot water system, etc.

Phase #3: All lighting and every other power socket.

If one phase is down the others still work with no problem. Advantages in power, efficiency, economy, management, and wider choice of products can be used.


You cannot have one phase down. It's all or nothing. If your house is wired as you say you should contact a qualified electrician. Using three phase should balance the loads on all phases. What you have just described i.e. all the lights( a low load) on one phase and appliances on another phase is dead wrong.

http://www.soundfirst.com/3_Phase_Power.html

:? Your link talks about harmonics mate! It’s the blending and manipulation of sound frequencies and only useful when designing a quality speaker system where “perfect load balancing” is desirable but it’s all irrelevant to 3-phase power consumption in a home.
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Re: Question about some details when building a house

Postby Get Real! » Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:44 pm

Sotos wrote:Thanks GR. When you say "zone control" can you actually set the temperature different in each room?

Yes, and its good to know the exact temp of each room at a glance.

What benefits does this system have from the usual split units?

Pros:

1. No monstrosities hanging on the walls, just sleek ducts on the ceiling.

2. One or two big compressors do the work of many little ones.

3. There are smaller air-intake ducts in every room that recycle and process the air. This ensures that existing air in the room is constantly cycled thereby eliminating air pressure buildup. (btw, this air processing is especially good for smokers like me!)

4. The system can easily accommodate a humidifier if desired that would have an immediate effect throughout the house.

5. Being 3-phase means more power efficiency and the ability to use industrial-strength equipment. A split unit won’t last anywhere near a system like this.

6. Powerful stuff… you can raise the temperature of say 100^2m from 15c to 25c in about 20 minutes! I can’t see that happening with split units!


Cons:

1. You’re committed to the specific company that supplied and installed the system for maintenance and parts because it’s hard to find another that has exactly the same equipment. (Only compressors are interchangeable)

2. Higher initial cash outlay for such a system… I think about twice the cost.

3. Your attics are taken up by the system. You can still use them for storage space etc but that’s it because it gets messy up there.

4. Higher parts costs. ie: If a compressor needs replacement you’ll need $2,000 to $3,500!


There are probably a lot more pros and cons but that’s all I can think of right now.
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Re: Question about some details when building a house

Postby CBBB » Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:49 pm

Get Real! wrote:
johbee wrote:
Get Real! wrote:I’ll expand here a little for Sotos…

NB: Since we have 3-phase power to accommodate a powerful air conditioning system, we can now manage the power for the rest of the house…

Phase #1: The air conditioning system.

Phase #2: The ovens, hot plates, washing machine, dishwasher, hot water system, etc.

Phase #3: All lighting and every other power socket.

If one phase is down the others still work with no problem. Advantages in power, efficiency, economy, management, and wider choice of products can be used.


You cannot have one phase down. It's all or nothing. If your house is wired as you say you should contact a qualified electrician. Using three phase should balance the loads on all phases. What you have just described i.e. all the lights( a low load) on one phase and appliances on another phase is dead wrong.

http://www.soundfirst.com/3_Phase_Power.html

:? Your link talks about harmonics mate! It’s the blending and manipulation of sound frequencies and only useful when designing a quality speaker system where “perfect load balancing” is desirable but it’s all irrelevant to 3-phase power consumption in a home.


You are both talking bollocks! It is quiet feasible to lose just one phase of your supply and the other two continue to work. I have seen this on a number of occasions. Harmonics are important as if not properly controlled they can lead to inefficient power usage and have a detrimental affect on some of the equipment you run.
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Re: Question about some details when building a house

Postby Get Real! » Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:59 pm

CBBB wrote:You are both talking bollocks! It is quiet feasible to lose just one phase of your supply and the other two continue to work. I have seen this on a number of occasions. Harmonics are important as if not properly controlled they can lead to inefficient power usage and have a detrimental affect on some of the equipment you run.

Look, let's leave all that boring stuff for Electrical engineers because our topic here is about temperature control methods (at the user level) in the average house! :roll:

And btw, Harmonics is the science of SOUND. I did it at uni as an Electronics engineer many moons ago…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic
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