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The Lord's prayer - Debt or trespass?

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The Lord's prayer - Debt or trespass?

Postby Talisker » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:35 pm

Now this might seem a bit convoluted, but stick with me.....

As we approach the Christian celebration of the birth of Jesus I'm reminded of an interpretative variation within the Lord's prayer. I'm most familiar with the following version from my Scottish protestant upbringing:

Our father, who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy name;
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done.
On earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
And forgive us our debts
As we forgive our debtors;

And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
And the power,
And the glory,
Forever.

.....whereas, I've noted when attending Anglican or Catholic services the lines in red are replaced so the prayer is as follows:

Our Father who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy name;
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us;

And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.


Now I am no expert in this area, but I assume the variation in words used for the translations - 'debt' as opposed to 'trespass', 'debtors' as opposed to 'trespassers' - represent synonyms for 'sin' and 'sinners' (as used in other versions of the prayer).

If one believed in the power of prayer, it struck me that the literal translation of the Lord's prayer, as applied to Cyprus, within a world awash with debt, and suffering from the trespass of Turkey and Turks, might be crucial. As countries/societies/people suffer from the debt crisis it's worth remembering those Cypriots still suffering from the trespass enforced since 1974, and their removal by the squatting trespassers. However, the different versions of this Christian prayer also mention 'forgiveness' of debtors or trespassers. In the event of a political solution in Cyprus can forgiveness be applied by the predominantly Christian majority to the trespassers? And does the current world debt crisis offer opportunities for an end to the Turkish trespass?
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Re: The Lord's prayer - Debt or trespass?

Postby bill cobbett » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:58 pm

Yes, always been Trespass in the Anglican Church, presumably standardised in the Book of Common Prayer.

No, don't feel in a very forgiving mood when it comes to Turkey's Tresspasing.

Wonder what the Orthodox version of the Lord's Prayer uses ... trespass or debt ????
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Re: The Lord's prayer - Debt or trespass?

Postby ZoC » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:41 am

bill cobbett wrote:Yes, always been Trespass in the Anglican Church, presumably standardised in the Book of Common Prayer.

No, don't feel in a very forgiving mood when it comes to Turkey's Tresspasing.

Wonder what the Orthodox version of the Lord's Prayer uses ... trespass or debt ????


billiroukoui.... just passing through bringing festive cheer in this season of goodwill...

the line in the original koini is:
καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν

from the word ὀφείλω meaning: to owe, to ought, to have to pay or account for...

interestingly, the root word is ὄφις meaning snake or serpent (the propagator of original sin) suggesting the word ὀφειλήματα is probably best translated as 'sins'.

won't be staying 'cos v. few of u sinners deserve it.. (present company excepted :wink: ).
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Re: The Lord's prayer - Debt or trespass?

Postby bill cobbett » Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:02 am

ZoC wrote:
bill cobbett wrote:Yes, always been Trespass in the Anglican Church, presumably standardised in the Book of Common Prayer.

No, don't feel in a very forgiving mood when it comes to Turkey's Tresspasing.

Wonder what the Orthodox version of the Lord's Prayer uses ... trespass or debt ????


billiroukoui.... just passing through bringing festive cheer in this season of goodwill...

the line in the original koini is:
καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν

from the word ὀφείλω meaning: to owe, to ought, to have to pay or account for...

interestingly, the root word is ὄφις meaning snake or serpent (the propagator of original sin) suggesting the word ὀφειλήματα is probably best translated as 'sins'.

won't be staying 'cos v. few of u sinners deserve it.. (present company excepted :wink: ).


:D

Merry Kreeeeestmas file.

You drop in from time to time ... you hear reh ? ... it get's very lonely in here surrounded by all these greeks and turks.... :D
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Re: The Lord's prayer - Debt or trespass?

Postby repulsewarrior » Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:44 am

Give us this day our daily bread,
And forgive us our trespasses;
As we forgive those who trespass against us,
lead us not into temptation;
and deliver us from evil

...read the punctuation carefully, which in my mind makes more sense,

if there is, a way...

cheers!
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Re: The Lord's prayer - Debt or trespass?

Postby repulsewarrior » Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:48 am

yiasou ZoC, ge yio, kopiase,
... xronia pola, kala xristouxena!
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Re: The Lord's prayer - Debt or trespass?

Postby AWE » Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:43 pm

or the 'tube' version:

Our Farnham, who art in Hendon,
Holloway, Turnpike Lane
Thy Kingston come; thy Wimbledon,
On Erith as it is in Hendon.
Give us this day our Maidenhead.
And lead us not into Penge station
But deliver us from Esher.
For Thine is the Kingston, the Tower and the Horley
For Iver and Iver
Crouch End.
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Re: The Lord's prayer - Debt or trespass?

Postby yialousa1971 » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:40 pm

Talisker wrote:Now this might seem a bit convoluted, but stick with me.....

As we approach the Christian celebration of the birth of Jesus I'm reminded of an interpretative variation within the Lord's prayer. I'm most familiar with the following version from my Scottish protestant upbringing:

Our father, who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy name;
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done.
On earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
And forgive us our debts
As we forgive our debtors;

And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
And the power,
And the glory,
Forever.

.....whereas, I've noted when attending Anglican or Catholic services the lines in red are replaced so the prayer is as follows:

Our Father who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy name;
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us;

And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.


Now I am no expert in this area, but I assume the variation in words used for the translations - 'debt' as opposed to 'trespass', 'debtors' as opposed to 'trespassers' - represent synonyms for 'sin' and 'sinners' (as used in other versions of the prayer).

If one believed in the power of prayer, it struck me that the literal translation of the Lord's prayer, as applied to Cyprus, within a world awash with debt, and suffering from the trespass of Turkey and Turks, might be crucial. As countries/societies/people suffer from the debt crisis it's worth remembering those Cypriots still suffering from the trespass enforced since 1974, and their removal by the squatting trespassers. However, the different versions of this Christian prayer also mention 'forgiveness' of debtors or trespassers. In the event of a political solution in Cyprus can forgiveness be applied by the predominantly Christian majority to the trespassers? And does the current world debt crisis offer opportunities for an end to the Turkish trespass?


The protestant version sounds like it was written by a Jew, wasn't Calvin's name really Klein. Image
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Re: The Lord's prayer - Debt or trespass?

Postby humanist » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:45 pm

I forgive VP and his clan for they have trespassed against my nation ;)
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Re: The Lord's prayer - Debt or trespass?

Postby EricSeans » Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:44 pm

Always the "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors" whenever at church in Scotland - usually at school. An easy stumble at that point when attending an English service, but most of us just mumbled anyway. Not sure what the Catholics did.
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