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France to Recognise Turkish Genocide of Armenians?

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Re: France to Recognise Turkish Genocide of Armenians?

Postby Hermes » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:22 am

Maximus wrote:Turkey has had plenty of opportunities and a LOT of time to resolve the cyprob and make progress with her EU accession, the kurdish issue as well as making peace with Armenia and some other countries that have issues with her. For whatever reason, she is unable to produce the results. At what point do you cut your losses and say, to hell with you and make the arrangements to move on?

Turkey is like a serial criminal that will go on repeating its crimes over and over. It displays no shame or remorse so needs to be dragged kicking and screaming before the court of world opinion and forced to confront its behaviour. There is no other way. Greek Cypriots understand the Turkish psyche only too well. We have seen it close up. Turks are repeat offenders on an epic scale. When they are made to face their crimes, as the French bill has exposed, they retreat into a false outrage and declare themselves the victims of racism! Is there a better example of just how low Turks will go to avoid responsibility for one of the most appalling crimes in human history? Shame on all of them.
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Re: France to Recognise Turkish Genocide of Armenians?

Postby Maximus » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:10 am

Hermes wrote:
Maximus wrote:Turkey has had plenty of opportunities and a LOT of time to resolve the cyprob and make progress with her EU accession, the kurdish issue as well as making peace with Armenia and some other countries that have issues with her. For whatever reason, she is unable to produce the results. At what point do you cut your losses and say, to hell with you and make the arrangements to move on?

Turkey is like a serial criminal that will go on repeating its crimes over and over. It displays no shame or remorse so needs to be dragged kicking and screaming before the court of world opinion and forced to confront its behaviour. There is no other way. Greek Cypriots understand the Turkish psyche only too well. We have seen it close up. Turks are repeat offenders on an epic scale. When they are made to face their crimes, as the French bill has exposed, they retreat into a false outrage and declare themselves the victims of racism! Is there a better example of just how low Turks will go to avoid responsibility for one of the most appalling crimes in human history? Shame on all of them.


'WE', being the rest of the world can take our fair share of the responsibility too though. 'WE' have conditioned Turkey to behave like this.

Turkey has a lot of unlearning to do.
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Re: France to Recognise Turkish Genocide of Armenians?

Postby bill cobbett » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:12 am

Just seen a TV speech by Erdogan in which he calls the vote to Criminalise the Denial of the Armenian Genocide as an assault on what he called "Turkish Honour".

Never have come across this "Honour" word used in relation to a nation before. Where is there "honour" in living in denial of events that the rest of the world accepts took place, in trying to re-write history?

There is "honour", if not in actually apologising to the Good People of Armenia, then at least in accepting it happened and expressing regrets. That would be the really honourable thing to do, to express regrets and for Erdogan to express those regrets in a visit to the memorial to the victims in Armenia. Now that would be a real test of "Turkish Honour".
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Re: France to Recognise Turkish Genocide of Armenians?

Postby supporttheunderdog » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:01 am

Turkey as a country has no honour only vanity.
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Re: France to Recognise Turkish Genocide of Armenians?

Postby kimon07 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:52 am

The new Turkish jurisprudence on Armenian genocide
By Burak Bekdil
.......
.......

"First, Professor Davutoğlu, you should have learned from your boss, Mr. Erdoğan, that [b]parliaments represent the “will of the nation”[/b] and their decisions are sacred in democracies. You should be able to explain why the Turkish Parliament’s decisions are sacred but decisions of the French or any other Parliament may not be so.

Second, you should be able to explain why politicians should be able to speak and vote on past crimes like the massacres of Dersim but not on the Armenian genocide."

...........
"In 2001, the French Parliament recognized the Armenian genocide. So it has been a decade of perfectly normal relations between Turkey and France, including joint projects and full diplomatic ties. Now Turkey threatens to freeze relations if the French Parliament makes it an offense to deny the genocide. This is the example Ankara is mistakenly creating: “Dear members of parliaments of the world! From now on, you can recognize the Armenian genocide and have perfectly normal relations with us; but we’ll get badly offended only if you made genocide denial illegal.”

Will the U.S. Congress get the message? The Turks should hope it won’t. Sadly, the more than 20 countries in the world whose parliaments have recognized the Armenian genocide stand like an unpleasant reminder that the soft power Mr. Davutoğlu loves to assume Turkey possesses does not exist in the real world."
December/23/2011

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/the-ne ... sCatID=398
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Re: France to Recognise Turkish Genocide of Armenians?

Postby BirKibrisli » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:20 pm

@ Lit...

You don't know me from a bar of soap,so what gives you the right to assume you know my stand on the Armenian issue or Turkish nationalism...???
I am smart enough to realise the Armenian cause can never be forgotten,as the Turkish saying goes "You cannot camouflage the sun with mud!"...
It has lost in translation ,but I hope even you can understand the meaning... :wink:
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Re: France to Recognise Turkish Genocide of Armenians?

Postby BirKibrisli » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:28 pm

bill cobbett wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
bill cobbett wrote:Erm...

As well as the recall of the Turkish Ambassador in Paris reported earlier, so that out of 27 EU member states, Turkey now doesn't have diplomatic relations with two of them as well as none with Israel)...

According to the French news agency AFP, the passing of the Bill have prompted angry crowds to gather in Ankara, who as we can imagine are of the ugly, angry nationalist, "homeland-loving" type, who have been shouting...

"We have not committed genocide, we defended the homeland."

and very damnably, they do seem to be threatening France with some kind of physical attack...

"Wait for us France, we will come."

Turkey, ever the reliable ally, has also banned French war-planes and warships from its territory.


Think,Bill...think....If Turkey is fighting with more and more EU countries,and realise she will never be admitted to the EU come what may,would that help solve the Cyprus problem???


Bir, please be realistic given what Monsieur Sarkozy and Frau Merkel have said time and time again in recent years and the general animosity amongst the citizenry of Europe to Turkish membership, the lamentable reluctance within Turkey in meeting the Stockholm Criteria, all those closed Chapters etc etc... and then add the current economic troubles of the EU to all that... There ain't gonna be any Turkish membership within our lifetimes, so shouldn't we take this factor out of CyProb?

Yes... as Max has just said... move on with other approaches.


I agree,Bill...Turkey's EU bid should be taken out of the equation when it comes to Cyprop...It is simply not applicable any longer...The question is ,what should replace it??? After all the ROC government has spent a lot of time and energy promoting that cause...My suggestion is use an economic carrot,it works in most cases...But dont muddy the waters with the Armenian issue,it will only make the matters worse re a permanent solution in Cyprus...That's all I am saying...
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Re: France to Recognise Turkish Genocide of Armenians?

Postby BirKibrisli » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:33 pm

bill cobbett wrote:... but Bir, to agree with you on one thing, this vote isn't gonna get anywhere. it's a private member's bill and it'll get thrown out at some time in the next few months, but Turkey's response to this minor bit of criticism is very revealing...

This over-sensitivity to anything remotely anti-Turkish and there is something of value for a future re-unified CY in all this and that's to remind us all, that there's no place for this rubbish, nationalist Section 301 stuff in CY.


Absolutely right,Bill...Not only this silly 301 stuff should have no place in Cyprus in a future solution,it should have no place now even in Turkey...Mature people,living in mature democracies should not need the protection of fascist,outdated laws that limit freedom of speech etc...
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Re: France to Recognise Turkish Genocide of Armenians?

Postby bill cobbett » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:34 pm

BirKibrisli wrote:
bill cobbett wrote:... but Bir, to agree with you on one thing, this vote isn't gonna get anywhere. it's a private member's bill and it'll get thrown out at some time in the next few months, but Turkey's response to this minor bit of criticism is very revealing...

This over-sensitivity to anything remotely anti-Turkish and there is something of value for a future re-unified CY in all this and that's to remind us all, that there's no place for this rubbish, nationalist Section 301 stuff in CY.


Absolutely right,Bill...Not only this silly 301 stuff should have no place in Cyprus in a future solution,it should have no place now even in Turkey...Mature people,living in mature democracies should not need the protection of fascist,outdated laws that limit freedom of speech etc...


Bir me dear, if we take Article 10 of the UDHR to define our rights to Free Expression... section 1 acknowledges the right to Free Speech and section 2 goes on to recognise that there are limits on it. Here it is in full...

Article 10 – Freedom of expression
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.


One of the many effects of these very limited limits is to stop nasty hate propaganda and trouble-making by such as neo-nazi Holocaust Deniers, fascist nationalists and fundamentalist religious groups. A reminder please that here in our major Cosmopolitan European cities we have very large communities of ethnic minorities that are the targets for these nasty groups, it is only right that they have protection from these attacks under the law.

Section 301 of course places limits on Free Speech and it does it for no good reason that most of us would recognise. It places very severe limits in order to promote or defend "turkishness" , and as a catch-all to defend the turkish state from criticism.

Now to move on a bit and to open another can of worms, there is another aspect of this French affair that moves us away from Free Speech. That is the issue of whether it is within the remit of states and governments to decide definitively on matters of history.
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Re: France to Recognise Turkish Genocide of Armenians?

Postby Hermes » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:42 pm

A couple of things to add to the staggering Turkish bullshit we've been subjected to over this issue. Firstly, more than 15 countries have officially recognized the slaughter of about 1.5 million Armenians in the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire as genocide, and its denial is already a crime in Switzerland and Slovenia.

Turkey’s own penal code makes affirming the genocide a crime on the grounds that it is an insult to Turkish identity. Earlier this year the novelist Orhan Pamuk was fined for his statement in a Swiss newspaper that “we have killed 30,000 Kurds and 1 million Armenians.”

It is hard to comprehend how a state which shows such utter contempt for the truth and which refuses to atone for past crimes, is being considered by the European Union as a prospective member. Turkey, on current evidence, is simply not fit to be a member of the EU. Time to make acknowledgement of Turkish atrocities a pre-requiste of their EU membership. Just as it has been for Serbia to hand over its war criminals to gain candidate status. Enough pussyfooting around with these fascist bastards.
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