Cyprus-Forum.com

[kimon07]

All we need now is Germany passing the same law.

Firstly:
1. Germany has recognized the holocaust since long.
2. I believe that Germany has also passed a law criminalizing the denial of the holocaust.
3. France has also passed a law criminalizing the denial of the Holocaust.
4. France has recognized since some time the Armenian Genocide and is now to forbid it's denial.
Now, and hoping that I will not be characterized as an advocate of Turkey here is my opinion on the issue:
I believe that the criminalisation of historical events, even if by 120% confirmed is not a democratic practice. It is a dangerous practice. Remember, in our world of the media, and the globalisation, and the ability of organized interests and powers to control the media and the flow of information and even to dictate and to "manufacture" history, I do not think it is safe for us, the citizens of the world, that some historical or "historical" events are served to us as DOGMAS, the denial or doubting of which is a crime or a sin.
Us, the Greeks, never accepted the dogmas but we always insisted on having the right to doubt and to demand proof and "verification" of everything. We do not accept that 2+2 = 4 just because somebody said so. We wand proof for that. That is why we Greeks never accepted the Christian Dogma of "Believe and do not Doubt" (I do not know if that its exact translation in English but it in Greek is "pisteve ke mi erevna:).
SO, I do not agree with the criminalisation of the denial and of doubt. If a "truth" is true, then there is no need to criminalize it's denial. The one denying the real and proven truth will be ridiculed.
The Armenian Genocide is a true fact. It's recognition is a MUST. It's denial, by anyone who wants to deny it, should NOT be treated as a criminal offence. That is what Democracy and ORTHOS LOGOS dictate.

[B25]

The French should apologise.

[kimon07]

The French should apologise.

They should stop being hypocrites, all of them, EU and US alike. Instead of passing meaningless bills against injustices or in favor of fair solutions etc, like in our case, they should be acting to either stop injustices and international crimes from being committed or to avert the consequences of such crimes. Again, like in our case they should tell Turkey to withdraw from Cyprus NOW OR ELSE....!!, like they did for Kuwait. Everything else is pure demagogy for electoral gains.

[Hermes]

People shouldn't overlook the reason why Turkey is in a blind panic about this issue. Turkey uses the same arguments about Armenia as it does about Cyprus and the Kurds.

The point about the history of Turkish atrocities – and what differentiates them from similar atrocities committed by the Nazis, for example – is that Turkey continues to deny they ever took place. Just imagine what we'd make of the Germans if they denied the Holocaust. And, of course, the real significance of genocide denial is that it is intended to wipe out the memory of the targeted race and is a continuation of genocide. For Armenia, read the obliteration of Greek Cypriot culture and its people in the north.

Genocide is not just part of Turkey's history, it is part of Turkey's present too. Indeed, Turkey's Armenian genocide denial is similar to the arguments it uses regarding Cyprus. First, Turkey denies any genocide happened; then it says if any killings took place they were justified because it was the Armenians who attacked Turks first; and then, when Turkey can no longer convince with its lies, it starts bleating about an anti-Turk conspiracy and how the West is biased against it.

It's worth pointing out that the mentality that produced the Armenian genocide also produced the invasion of Cyprus and the atrocities that characterised it; and the fact that Turkey cannot accept the evils it has committed is what makes it a continuing threat to its neighbours and a menace in the region.

[kimon07]

It's worth pointing out that the mentality that produced the Armenian genocide also produced the invasion of Cyprus and the atrocities that characterised it; and the fact that Turkey cannot accept the evils it has committed is what makes it a continuing threat to its neighbours and a menace in the region.

Firstly: Agreeing with most of your points, I would say that the problem with Turkey is not so much that it does not recognize the evils it has committed, but that it regards such evils as "National Duty" and has them on it's official agenda as such. Basic Foreign and Domestic Policy tools.

Secondly: The problem with the International Community is that it lets Turkey commit it's evils and then sends ambassadors and ministers and politicians etc to cry over the graves of the massacred and the remnants of the disasters and mediators to offer their good services under the auspices of some jack-ass whom the Americans appoint as the Secretary General of the UN to take care for the cover up of the mess and to wipe the blood off the floor.

Thirdly. Yes, the evils should be recognized (if proven) by the International Community. And the State which committed them MUST also be forced to recognize them, admit them, not repeat them, not deny them but mainly PAY for them.

However! People, individuals, private organisations etc, should not be penalized for expressing doubt and wanting to carry on researching, if not convinced, nor if they come up with opinions or even theories that contradict the "recognition". If you penalise someone today for supporting that a genocide WAS NOT committed by Turkey or any other country or entity, maybe tomorrow you will penalize him for claiming that some other genocide or international or human crime WAS committed. Maybe they will penalise me and you for DENYING the claim of the Turks that the GCs massacred the poor TCs and that this caused the division of Cyprus. I want to be free and able to deny the Turkish propaganda without fearing that one day I may be penalised for that (by anyone else than Turkey, I mean).
Because, if I continue debating and contradicting the Turkish propaganda, I will finally be able to prove the truth, if what I advocate and support IS the truth. As the Armenians managed to do after efforts of many decades.

[bill cobbett]

Yes, some excellent posts and insights on this matter, but can just throw a few more things in to the mix for the consideration of the Wise Council of CF...

There has been an unprecedented attempt at interference by Turkey in the internal affairs of the Republic of France.

For those who are worried about Free Speech, let's not please start relying on Turkey of all countries to protect anyone's Freedom of Expression. From Turkey's perspective this matter has bugger all to do with Free Speech.

Some 500,000 Armenians live in France and we'd have to be a bit naive to not take this in to account.

This ain't just about criminalising Denial of the Armenian Genocide and Turkey. It's gonna be more general, in that it'll also apply to any promotion of the denial of a number of other proscribed Genocides Denials. So presumably it'll also apply to those neo-nazi groups who are promoting a re-writing of history as regards the Nazi Holocaust.

With these neo-nazis in mind , this may be an pre-emptive attempt by the French Republic to potentially criminalise a range of extremist groups like the neo-nazis and the equally stomach churning Turkish Nationalists, to stop them spreading their messages of "Ethnic Supremacy" and "Race" Hate, messages that at present are hiding under the cover of Free Speech.

[Viewpoint]

What about the Algerian Genocide?

[Hermes]

What about the Algerian Genocide?

VP not bothering to read the thread again!

[BirKibrisli]

There is no excuse for Turkey denying this tragic chapter in their long and bloody history..
But it is not upto parliaments in unrelated countries to decide what did or did not happen in history...And if we believe in freedom of speech as a fundamental human right,we must condemn any attempt to limit it...

It is also deplorable that some of you here are using other people's pain and suffering to further your own twisted cause...Let Turkish,Armenian and International historians decide what took place in the past..Let us concentrate on our little bloody problem...It will not go away if we ignore it ...

[Hermes]

Let Turkish,Armenian and International historians decide what took place in the past. Let us concentrate on our little bloody problem...It will not go away if we ignore it ...

We know what happened. The issue is that Turkey refuses to face up to what happened. Just as the Nazi holocaust is a matter of historical record so too is the Armenian genocide fully documented. The Turkish government not only refuses to acknowledge what happened, it actively seeks to suppress discussion of what happened. Can you imagine what we'd make of Angela Merkel if she denied the Holocaust against the Jews? Then sought to suppress historical discussion of Nazi atrocities?

The difference between the Turkish atrocities and the similar Nazi genocide against the Jews is that Turkey continues to deny such crimes ever took place.

The significance of genocide denial is that its intention is to eradicate the memory and historical presence of the targeted population. It is a continuation of genocide. Anyone familiar with the Turkish treatment of its Kurdish population and the occupation of northern Cyprus would recognise that such Turkish crimes against humanity are not simply a part of Turkish history. They are still going on. The impulse that drove Turkey to commit genocide against the Armenians is no different to the impulse that drives Turkey to eradicate Greek Cypriots and their cultural heritage from northern Cyprus.

That's why this issue is relevant to our "little bloody problem". Turkey facing up to its past crimes would go some way to Turkey being able to acknowledge its present crimes.