Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Vp replies:

We would work together to guarantee all parties complied with a solution agreed between us, plus these are international agreements which should include penalties for reneging parties.

You would have my back and I yours, thats what is called a partnership and looking out for one anothers best interests.

So we don't need Turkey to enforce a settlement or indeed any external guarantors beyond existing EU and international law? We can work things out together. Have I got this right, VP?

You appear to be confusing two different matters, while I agree that we can agree that Turkey is not needed to force the application of a signed agreement between the 2 sides there must clear guidelines as to what happens if one side should not fulfill its obligations? What if GCs renege on the deal, what do you proposed should happen to them?

The matter of Turkeys security guarantee is a total different matter and is only valid when the TCs are placed in a dangerous and explosive situation eg civil war, terrorist attacks and continuous TC deaths at the hands of GCs.

[Viewpoint]

Why are we humouring the TCs with pointless guarantees? Even discussing such concepts gives them ideas that such things are normal. I'm happy to wait for a solution which puts an end to such nonsense once and for all.

I agree that the idea of guarantees has become a smokescreen under which TCs have tried to preserve the status quo. But if you ask the TCs who should then guarantee a solution if Turkey can't do it (because it's unacceptable to us), then really it's all down to EU treaties and international law. There's no other option that would satisfy both sides. In effect, the guarantee is the EU acquis.

Which will do exactly what if you renege?

[Hermes]

You appear to be confusing two different matters, while I agree that we can agree that Turkey is not needed to force the application of a signed agreement between the 2 sides there must clear guidelines as to what happens if one side should not fulfill its obligations? What if GCs renege on the deal, what do you proposed should happen to them?

The matter of Turkeys security guarantee is a total different matter and is only valid when the TCs are placed in a dangerous and explosive situation eg civil war, terrorist attacks and continuous TC deaths at the hands of GCs.

If the deal is satisfactory to all sides then there will be no need to 'renege' on the deal. Why would you deliberately undermine a deal that is in your interests? Which brings us to the second part: if the deal is good for both communities and there is no resentment because no-ones human rights or fundamental freedoms have been violated or limited, why would you need external guarantees? In fact, wouldn't this make the idea of a guarantee redundant?

There might well be a need however, because of the distrust you describe, to have a transitionary peace-keeping force to enforce a solution for a few years: such as the OSCE who are very experienced in these matters. I don't think there'd be too many objections from either side. Given how relatively peaceful and trouble-free interactions have been since the opening of the crossings I doubt that either side has much appetite these days for the kind of gruesome scenarios you describe.

[Viewpoint]

Hermes

If the deal is satisfactory to all sides then there will be no need to 'renege' on the deal. Why would you deliberately undermine a deal that is in your interests? Which brings us to the second part: if the deal is good for both communities and there is no resentment because no-ones human rights or fundamental freedoms have been violated or limited, why would you need external guarantees? In fact, wouldn't this make the idea of a guarantee redundant?

You avoid addressing the real question every time hermes....we can never guarantee that a party to the contract will not renege, please try to answer my question what if for any reason the GCs renege?

There might well be a need however, because of the distrust you describe, to have a transitionary peace-keeping force to enforce a solution for a few years: such as the OSCE who are very experienced in these matters. I don't think there'd be too many objections from either side. Given how relatively peaceful and trouble-free interactions have been since the opening of the crossings I doubt that either side has much appetite these days for the kind of gruesome scenarios you describe.

Why do you think the interactions are "peaceful and trouble free"? Could it be that we are not mixed anymore so we can no longer hide or blame the other side? Once united this will change especially if one sides decides to get up to some shenanigans to get the upper hand and undermine the other state.

Can the OSCE take military action if need be? where is their army stationed and how long would it for them to arrive in times of crisis?

[Hermes]

You avoid addressing the real question every time hermes....we can never guarantee that a party to the contract will not renege, please try to answer my question what if for any reason the GCs renege?

Why do you think the interactions are "peaceful and trouble free"? Could it be that we are not mixed anymore so we can no longer hide or blame the other side? Once united this will change especially if one sides decides to get up to some shenanigans to get the upper hand and undermine the other state.

Can the OSCE take military action if need be? where is their army stationed and how long would it for them to arrive in times of crisis?

Okay. Good questions again, VP. I hope I can answer them to your satisfaction.

1. As any new constitution would be in strict compliance with European constitutional principles and the acquis communautaire, I don't see how you can renege on it without being in breach of EU law. Any internal constitutional changes would have to be in line with the acquis and I imagine would need to be agreed by all sides.

2. Thousands of TCs travel to the free areas every week to work, shop and visit friends. Given the relative lack of incidents under the current division of the island, I would think that is a cause for optimism. I don't think many people would take it as a reason for justifying division!

3. Yes the OSCE take military action when required. They would be empowered to to do so. In fact their remit would be to enforce any internal settlement. Their troops would be stationed throughout the island and would arrive at any situation within minutes. The OSCE could deploy a Verification Mission in Cyprus to replace Turkish troops, and put the mind of the Turkish Cypriots at rest concerning their security.

[Viewpoint]

Hermes

1. As any new constitution would be in strict compliance with European constitutional principles and the acquis communautaire, I don't see how you can renege on it without being in breach of EU law. Any internal constitutional changes would have to be in line with the acquis and I imagine would need to be agreed by all sides.

There will be gray areas or even derogations these are unavoidable if we expect to compromise and find a solution, you appear to be adamant in not answering the real question which was what will happen if the GCs renege on any part of the signed agreement? Leads me and others to believe you do not have the answer.

2. Thousands of TCs travel to the free areas every week to work, shop and visit friends. Given the relative lack of incidents under the current division of the island, I would think that is a cause for optimism. I don't think many people would take it as a reason for justifying division!

You must be a politician as you look as if you are answering but the content is not in relation to the subject matter, yes although there are incidents between the south and north these are not significant enough to support the fact that we can not get along, I stated that could this be related to the fact that we have a clear dividing line and neither side can blame the other for incidents like they did in the past when we were mixed. But a solution would bring about far great interaction between the Tcs and Gcs, in short we would be returning to a more mixed status, if either side wanted to create trouble it would be much easier as they could clearly place the blame on the other side to generate a sense of fear and uncertainty.

3. Yes the OSCE take military action when required. They would be empowered to to do so. In fact their remit would be to enforce any internal settlement. Their troops would be stationed throughout the island and would arrive at any situation within minutes. The OSCE could deploy a Verification Mission in Cyprus to replace Turkish troops, and put the mind of the Turkish Cypriots at rest concerning their security.

Can you give us any independent links which clarify exactly their capacity and remit?

[Bananiot]

Those that want to turn the TCs into a minority, in a previous life, wanted Cyprus to become part of Greece. Turning the TCs into a minority cannot happen, so stop playing with this issue because people just lough at you.

[Kikapu]

Vp replies:

We would work together to guarantee all parties complied with a solution agreed between us, plus these are international agreements which should include penalties for reneging parties.

You would have my back and I yours, thats what is called a partnership and looking out for one anothers best interests.

So we don't need Turkey to enforce a settlement or indeed any external guarantors beyond existing EU and international law? We can work things out together. Have I got this right, VP?

You appear to be confusing two different matters, while I agree that we can agree that Turkey is not needed to force the application of a signed agreement between the 2 sides there must clear guidelines as to what happens if one side should not fulfill its obligations? What if GCs renege on the deal, what do you proposed should happen to them?

The matter of Turkeys security guarantee is a total different matter and is only valid when the TCs are placed in a dangerous and explosive situation eg civil war, terrorist attacks and continuous TC deaths at the hands of GCs.

Surely with such guarantees from Turkey, what would stop you who is a NeoPartitionist to create a "False Flag" situations to bring Turkey back in? What makes you think you can be trusted to act as a Cypriot and not what you are now, an agent of Turkey? Any security has to be provided by a group of countries such as NATO and not one singular country, assuming you are really concerned about security and not about how to find ways to divide the island.

[Get Real!]

Those that want to turn the TCs into a minority, in a previous life, wanted Cyprus to become part of Greece. Turning the TCs into a minority cannot happen, so stop playing with this issue because people just lough at you.

You could’ve at least waited for the results of the “TRNC” census before posting this funny and sad statement because I predict you won’t even find a minority called “Turkish Cypriots” in the tally, let alone fantasize that they are on par with the 800,000+ on this side of the roadblock!

[Hermes]

^^^
In reply to Viewpoint's convoluted nit-picking I will be brief:

1. You cannot change a constitutional agreement without democratic agreement by the parties. As in any other federal state.
2. Of course a unified state will allow communities to inter-mingle more. Unless you want segregation as in apartheid South Africa where blacks and white were kept apart.
3. More information on the OSCE can be found here: http://www.osce.org/