Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

And this was while the Gcs were doing what exactly could you kindly clarify that point for us as well and include which came first enosis or taksim?

Thank you for your reply, Viewpoint. A good question. Let me answer it like this. It's very easy to get involved in games of what came first. So let's go back to what we can be sure of. For example, it's on historical record that the Turkish Cypriot terrorist organisation, the TMT, instigated the wave of communal clashes in Cyprus in 1958 when they planted a bomb outside the Turkish consulate in Nicosia. They subsequently blamed the Greeks and instigated riots, burning and attacking Greek Cypriot property in the surrounding areas. It was later confirmed by Rauf Denktash, the leader of the T/Cs, that the bomb was planted by Turks to foment clashes between Greek and Turkish Cypriots. A few days after the bomb was planted by Turkish terrorists, several Greek Cypriots were murdered outside a Turkish village.

Before the actions of the TMT in 1958 most Cypriots lived in a state of relatively peaceful co-existence. After the end of the colonial struggle against the British, that is after independence in 1960, the TMT and TC leadership intensified their efforts for self-segregation and partition and did everything in their power to prevent a peaceful co-existence. In response, the GCs had no option but to defend themselves from this insurgency in their midst.

As I said previously, TMT terrorism cannot be justified as a response to enosis because why would the TMT terrorists be murdering innocent TC activists between 1958 and 1964. These murdered activists were not known as supporters of enosis. Indeed the only reason they were murdered was because they advocated peaceful co-existence. Not enosis. My conclusion, as it was at the time of the UN Secretary General, is that the TMT terrorists and the Turkish leadership were involved in a political campaign to make Cyprus ungovernable, to foment civil war and to enforce self-segregation upon the TCs.

In the midst of this Turkish-inspired turmoil I think questions of what came first (enosis or taxsim) are therefore not strictly relevant. Because the TMT were not responding to GC demands for enosis during the colonial struggle but to Cypriot independence and peaceful co-existence between GCs and TCs. I hope that is clear. And that is why the TMT terrorists killed innocent Turkish Cypriots.

Sorry to say this but this post is total bullshit, you dismiss and make excuses for the crux of the matter and continue to blame one side 100%. You avoid answering the real question as what were the eoka terrorists doing and what was their role in pushing innocent TCs into enclaves? I can introduce you to many TCs who will confirm time and time again that they were frighten for their lives thats why they ran away from GCs into safe havens we now refer to as enclaves. Do you really believe and if you do you are an vile stupid individual that Tcs wanted to live under those squalid conditions and that they were so stupid that even though they felt safe they did not go back to the luxury of the homes?

You have to own up and accept your share of the blame (enosis/eoka) which infact was the catalyst to all our the developments which have led us to where we are today.

Please clarify what exactly you are trying to prove by stating the TMT killed TCs because they opposed Taksim and wanted to live together with GCs, why arent you in the same breath also giving us details that eoka terrorists killed innocent GCs for opposing enosis and wanting to live together with TCs and also not known as supporters of taksim?

[Lordo]

when AKEL cowardly joined Enosis movement. Thankfully they realised their mistake in 1990...

You must be joking.

"AKEL, being a slave Stalinist Communist Party of the worse kind, was always against Enosis because according to the Soviet Masters of AKEL, Enosis would result to turning Cyprus into a NATO base.
The soviets, on the other hand, were against EOKA and so was AKEL because EOKA snatched from them the opportunity to start their own "Anti-Colonial" revolt while EOKAS's was a National one (not anti colonial).
Why did Akel oppose Makarios in the first elections when the republic was formed? Because they were against "Enosis" and Makarios was thought to be pro-"Enosis".
When did they side with him and supported him wholeheartedly? During the early seventies when it became evident that his policy was against "Enosis"

You really need to learn your history a little more accurately, take a leaf out of Niyazi Kizilyurek book and learn when AKEL joined Enosis and when they apologised for it. You will find it was in 1964 before Kavazoglu was killed and some say they signed his death warrant by their decision.

"Although Dervis Ali Kavazoglu fought with all his might for ‘the cause’ despite difficulties, he was deeply sorry for the events that took place in 1964. The reason was not just the bloodshed between the two communities but also that AKEL, the party that he was a proud member of, had decided to return to their Enosis policy, which drove him to take a stand of political solidarity. AKEL had indeed returned to their Enosis policy in 1964, leaving their 1960 “completion of Independence” policy. Kavazoglu had objected to division all his life and he even put his life at stake in order to defend his cause. Now, especially after the establishment of the independent Republic of Cyprus, it was unacceptable to him that the Party had once again gone back to Enosis. His disappointment is obvious in the lines written by Vanezos. In a speech about the fighting in Erenkoy/Mansura made by Hambis Michaelides, a member of the Central Committee, he said “The blood of the Greek Cypriots and their Greek brethren got mixed up in Mansura,” which caused Kavazoglu deep sorrow. When talking about this incident with Vanezos, Kavazoglu, with his head between his hands, could not help but ask: “Then why am I fighting this war?”
He held the leaders of the two communities responsible for the events of 1963-64 and he knew very well that it was difficult to live in peace on an island where blood had been shed. He also knew well that the Enosis policy of the Greek Cypriot Leadership was nothing more than supporting the idea of division. His expectations from AKEL were deep regarding this very issue. Tell the Greek Cypriot community the truth and drive them away from the Enosis policy! Otherwise he felt that the future of the Republic of Cyprus would be very dark.
Unfortunately AKEL’s attitude did not meet Kavazoglu’s expectations as the Party insisted on its own self-determination/Enosis decision and whilst doing so left Dervis Ali in a difficult situation. What Kavazoglu said to Vanezos makes clear the tragic situation that he had been dragged into: “Vanezos, I will carry on with this fight as I have been doing so up until this moment. (…) However AKEL’s Enosis policy is not helping me the least bit and puts me in a difficult situation. (…) How can I help build a Turkish-Greek Cypriot friendship as a member of AKEL? What can I say to the Turkish Cypriots that have cooperated with me about the AKEL Enosis policy, what will I say?” These lines clearly explain the tragic situation that Kavazoglu found himself trapped in.
AKEL Enosis self-criticism
Kavazoglu’s predictions were verified by political events in the days to follow when his party AKEL finally had to accept his prophecy regarding the issue, but, unfortunately their ‘apology’ came 25 years too late. AKEL made an announcement of self-criticism on January 27, 1990 – exactly 25 years after the Kavazoglu assassination – when it admitted that pursuing their Enosis policy during the years 1964-1967 was a “mistake”.
So, you see AKEL officially accepted Dervis Ali Kavazoglu’s words said in the beginning of the 60s twenty-five years later in 1990."

[Hermes]

Please clarify what exactly you are trying to prove by stating the TMT killed TCs because they opposed Taksim and wanted to live together with GCs, why arent you in the same breath also giving us details that eoka terrorists killed innocent GCs for opposing enosis and wanting to live together with TCs and also not known as supporters of taksim?

Thank you again for your reply, Viewpoint. Allow me to clarify the point I am trying to make. What I want to suggest is that the TMT's terrorist campaign was not a simple reaction against enosis but was in fact a rival policy of violence and self-segregation that was against peaceful co-existence and independence. Why do I think this?

If the TMT's aim was to prevent enosis why would they target and murder innocent Turkish Cypriots who were not in favour of enosis at all? There can be only one explanation: the TMT terrorists were not in fact simply responding to GC demands for enosis made during the colonial era but were actively engaged in an armed insurrection against Cypriot independence and peaceful co-existence between GCs and TCs. Otherwise why would the TMT terrorists kill innocent Turkish Cypriot activists?

Evidence for this comes from none other than the UN Secretary General at the time, who claimed with some authority that the TMT terrorists and the Turkish leadership were involved in a campaign to make Cyprus ungovernable, to foment civil war and to enforce self-segregation upon the TCs.

So what does this prove? I am certainly not trying to ignore EOKA's murder of known leftists, for whatever reasons, during the 1950s. The point is to clarify that even though the majority of GCs abandoned enosis in the 1960s and are today overwhelmingly in favour of Cypriot independence, the TC and TMT policies of self-segregation and partition are still with us today. Of the two communities, the TCs are the ones who are stuck in the past, unable to move on.

Until the TCs renounce their own adherence to violent self-segregation, their inheritance from the TMT terrorists, then they will be always stuck in the 1960s, murdering and sacrificing their own people and community to the interests of Ankara.

[kimon07]

You really need to learn your history a little more accurately, take a leaf out of Niyazi Kizilyurek book and learn when AKEL...

What you are referring to is not “my” history but inter-party AKEL history. I do not care about inter-AKEL disagreements because what I know comes from what I have personally experienced and I do not need to read any ones book about it.

So according to MY personal experience, AKEL, its officials and its plain members, were not only opposing Enosis openly, they were also trying to create a direct and open animosity between GCs and mainland Greeks (as they still do), even going as far as assaulting and insulting publicly officers and personnel of the Greek Regiment ELDYC.

I also remember them being actually pleased with the bombing of Mansura by the TAF in 1964 and the non intervention of the HAF, thinking that this would be another reason for the GCs to be disappointed with Greece and another cause for them to distance themselves from Greece.

And I also remember, having to work on a summer job, as a young student, in public works next to many AKEL members, how they celebrated the withdrawal of the Greek force from the Island in 1967 after the Kofinou clashes.

[kimon07]

You avoid answering the real question as what were the eoka terrorists doing and what was their role in pushing innocent TCs into enclaves.......which infact was the catalyst to all our the developments which have led us to where we are today.

Yeah!! Let us see who terrorised who into enclaves, a practice which was, indeed, the catalist to future developments etc., etc.


TMT – terrorist turkish group and the ENCLAVES

Eu Accession Dynamics and Conflict Resolution: Catalysing Peace Or Consolidating Partition in Cyprus By Nathalie Tocci
(p.46)

Quote:
………….If the British were to leave Cyprus, the island should be relumed to Turkey and should under no circumstance be annexed to Greece.
This spontaneous rejection nurtured by the British led to a British-Turkish Cypriot front against EOKA in the mid-1950s. In 1956 the Turkish Cypriots began countering EOKA through VOLKAN and then in 1957 the TMT (Turk Mukavemet Teskilati).
These groups cooperated with British forces in resisting enosis. As a consequence, the Turkish Cypriots were automatically transformed into the enemies of the Greek Cypriot cause.
Active Turkish political interest in Cyprus began in 1955. This was partly a response to external events, namely EOKA violence and the UN debate on Cyprus. But domestic factors also encouraged Turkey’s attention. By the mid-1950s, Turkish Prime Minister Adrian Menderes was beginning to face serious economic problems, with a significant slowdown in growth, rising internal and external imbalances and inflationary pressures. Aiming to distract public attention from internal problems, Menderes turned to the external realm. The government stepped up its nationalist rhetoric on Cyprus. Initially, in the early and mid-1950s Turkey supported a retention of British rule. However, by 1957 Turkey formulated its own counter-position to enosis: taksim or partition of the island into Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot zones.

Hostage to History: Cyprus from the Ottomans to Kissinger By Christopher Hitchens p.116-117
Quote:
The real power in the North is held by the Turkish army and its allies. Among the latter, the most prominent is Mr Rauf Denktash’s National Unity Party. Ever since the days of the TMT underground, this faction has expressed the ambitions of conservative Turkish nationalism in Cyprus. Dr Kuchuk, again writing in his daily Hatkin Sesi, confirms that from 1957 he was in touch with Riza Vuruskan, the Turkish officer who led and founded TMT; first to help the British and then to fight against the Greeks and the Turkish Cypriot radicals. Dr Kuchuk recalled, on Vuruskan’s death in 1979, that in the 1950s he used to go to Ankara very frequently. During one of these visits, the late Prime Minister of Turkey, Adnan Menderes, introduced Riza Vuruskan to me . . Later on I met him at the office of a lieutenant general and talked with him there. During our meeting it was decided that Vuruskan should come to Cyprus as ‘civilian adviser’. He arrived in Cyprus under an assumed name.
Mr Denktash has also given his reminiscences of that period, in which he admitted for the first time what had long been suspected – that he had been among the founders of TMT:
Everybody thought 1 was the leader but I was not. I was political adviser. Immediately after forming it I handed it over. It was a good mask because even the British and American intelligence thought I was the man who decided everything. I was not. The leaders were former army officers from Turkey. [The Times. 20 January 1978]
In Turkish political terms, before the abolition of independent parties, the NUP would have straddled the right wing of the conservative Justice Party, with room at its extremity for supporters of the Fascist National Action Party of Colonel Turkes.

Cyprus and International Peacemaking By Farid Mirbagheri p. 48Quote:

The separation of the two communities has remained a contentious issue ever since the 1963 crisis began. The Turkish Cypriots claim that they were driven out of their homes by the Greek Cypriots and were therefore forced to take refuse in the enclaves. The Greek Cypriots. on the other hand, claim that the Turkish Cypriots imposed isolation on themselves to convince the world that the two could no longer live together in harmony.
All the evidence points towards the validity of the Greek Cypriots’ claim:
an official Turkish Cypriot document leaked to the Greek Cypriots stated that :“a fine of £25 or other severe punishment, and one month imprisonment or whipping’ would be imposed on Turks residing in the enclaves who entered Greek areas without special permit, or who did so (permit or no permit) for the purpose of visiting Greek courts, hospitals or other state institutions, or nor business with Greeks or friendly association with Greeks, or merely for a walk or for amusement.

In a report to the UN on 11 March l965 U Thant -stated: ‘The Turkish Cypriot policy of self-isolation has led the community in the opposite direction from normality.’

Mediating in Cyprus: The Cypriot Communities and the United Nations By Oliver P. Richmond p.79Quote:

The result of the escalation of violence was that the Turkish Cypriots’ semi-voluntary withdrawal to enclaves became permanent, these areas being beyond the control of the government. This was both for their security and because they were under pressure from hard-liners within the community to withdraw from any cooperation with the Greek Cypriot side.

Sovereign Bodies: Citizens, Migrants, and States in the Postcolonial World – p.105-107
by Thomas Blom Hansen, Finn StepputatQuote:

105 • The Spirit of Terror

Unlike political regimes which have been transformed or turned over in the last decades, whether it be in Europe, in the post socialist world, or in the Third World, a specific regime of authority has been more or less maintained in Turkish-Cypriot enclaves and territories in Cyprus, now, for almost forty years. Here, it is interesting to study the workings of an old-fashioned regime in the contemporary period. Indeed, an old political ethos haunts the contemporary in northern Cyprus, “the spirit of the TMT* (“TMT ruhu”), as Turkish Cypriots call it.

The TMT (Turk Mukavemet Teskilati), the Turkish Resistance Organization, was a guerrilla group founded underground in 1958 by Turkish-Cypriot community leaders in collaboration with Turkey’s Special War Unit (Akkurt 2000, 35; Tansu 2001, 27-29). It took its inspiration from the Greek-Cypriot EOKA’ that was fighting the British for independence and for union with Greece (ENOSIS). The mimicry and mirroring between these two underground organizations and the administrative practices they engendered is significant. Now, as they generated what is problematically called the “inter-communal conflict between Turkish-Cypriots and Greek-Cypriots,” the members of EOKA and TMT also became community administrators early on. They took their place in the administrative body of the Republic of Cyprus, when declared independent (from the British) in I960. When in 1963 EOKA attacked Turkish-Cypriot communities, the whole island was parcelled into ghetto like enclaves with complicated borders guarded by the United Nations. Turkish-Cypriot administrators defected from the bi-communal Republic of Cyprus and under the organizing initiative of the TMT began to form their own separate state like system. The kernels of the contemporary unrecognized state in Cyprus (the “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus”) and its specific culture of politics-’ were planted in that period.
The structure of the TMT and its political spirit was what organized the successive administrative entities under which the Turkish-Cypriots became subjects. A Turkish-Cypriot lawyer explained: “The TMT was protecting the Turkish-Cypriots from attacks by EOKA. And the Turkish-Cypriots had to recognize this force that was protecting them.”

106 • Yael Navaro-Yashin

Now, Turkish-Cypriots still speak of what they call “the spirit of the TMT” as metaphor for the culture of politics in northern Cyprus. The old guerrilla fighters arc now leaders and members of the administration, more than forty years onward after the formation of the TMT. There is still a taboo around discussing the culture of terror inflicted by the TMT on its own subjects, the Turkish-Cypriots- And in official representations (in the administration’s newspapers and in propaganda speeches delivered in national ceremonies, school textbooks, and programs on TV), TMT fighters are represented as “heroes” who saved Turkish-Cypriots from being exterminated by the Greek-Cypriots. If this interpretation is partially accepted by Turkish-Cypriots, it is also complicated, by most who are not associated with the establishment, in spaces where people feel they can speak their mind. In the most intimate encounters, among close friends and family, people tell stories “of Turkish-Cypriots murdered by the TMT,” commonly speculating whether their “martyred” relatives may have been assassinated by the TMT and not, as officially claimed, by EOKA or by Greek-Cypriots. Numerous stories are circulated in private quarters about TMT atrocities against its own subjects, the Turkish-Cypriots.
Cemil, who was borm around the time when the TMT was created, said:

The system that has, to this day. continued to govern this country is the TMT system. The TMT was founded in 1958 and started to administer the Turkish-Cypriots. Even the postal service was in TMT hands in the period of enclaves between 1963 and 1974. Now we have the continuation of that administration, only under a different name, the “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.”The spirit of 1958 still haunts us. People who have grown under this system learned to be discrete, to watch their words and speech.
I never learned to be this way; this is why they sacked me from a number of jobs. Somebody heard that I was saying something critical about the administration to somebody else. And that was the end of that.
“The TMT spirit” could be studied and analyzed as the political unconscious of Turkish-Cypriots. With the old guerrilla-fighters still in power, if in civilian or administrative garb, and offshoots of the old organizational circuits springing up under new names, the TMT is alive not only as a culture of politics but also as actual and implemented political organization. But when Turkish-Cypriots refer to what they call “the TMT spirit’ they are referring to the culture of terror, tacit fear, and enforced secrecy that was the order of the day at the height of conflict with Greek-Cypriots, between 1963 and 1974, a culture of politics that has remained as practice and precipitation since.

..."People almost viscerally remember the fear instigated by the TMT. Pembe Hanim, in her sixties, said:
The TMT came to our village and made a “guerrilla” out of every thief and idle man. These men became the leaders of the TMT in our village- We used to be afraid of both Greeks and Turks.
The TMT spread fear amongst us; that fear remains. They killed many Turks, you know...."
For example, they killed the husband of our neighbour Behice Hanim who was a policeman in the British bases. One night the TMT came to his house and said he should leave the gate to the bases open for them to go in and smuggle guns....."

If subjects of the administration in northern Cyprus speak of the endurance of “the TMT spirit,” that culture of fear they refer to with periodical lynchings and terrorization is relatively less intense today than it was at the height of conflict. The difference is that people have become used to being administered under such a system and have been inhabiting its culture of politics

Echoes from the Dead Zone: Across the Cyprus Divide By Yiannis Papadakis p.196- 197
Quote:
BETRAYAL
‘My father was a farmer......
....First his dog was found, the one he used to take with him out in the fields. Then his body. The TMT came at once. ‘You see, we told him not to go there.’ They even told us the name of the killer. He was a Rum who drove a lorry. Bui later, when I was around sixteen perhaps, I began to hear things. That he was not killed by the Rums. That TMT killed him. But I refused to believe them. It was impossible to believe them.
I joined the TMT as soon as I was allowed to carry a gun because I hated Rums so much...."
"...In 1974 I understood what TMT really meant. When the Rums attacked us and my friend right next to me was injured, none of those brave TMT guys came to help...." "... You know Yianni, it’s not impossible that some of the mass graves of Turkish Cypriots from 1974 were created like that, by a lunacy that someone like him came up with".
"In the beginning they didn’t want to talk about it, but when they realized that I knew everything they told me what happened.
How a TMT man killed my father under orders, how other Turkish Cypriots were killed by TMT and were later declared ‘martyrs’, as if they had been killed by Rums. And how the TMT even came to tell us the name of the killer, who was not the real killer.
That way they could kill two birds with one stone. Say that my father was killed by a Rum and make us take revenge and create more animosity. From then on I couldn’t stand the TMT. I felt ashamed for having been one of them, and for being so nationalist in the past. Many people were killed by TMT but people still pretend that they don’t know, even though everyone does. The worst thing was to grow up thinking that your father was killed by the Rums and then find out.
Can you understand how I felt, Yianni?


Hostage to History: Cyprus from the Ottomans to Kissinger By Christopher Hitchens p. 47
Quote:
http://truthaboutturks.wordpress.com/20 ... -enclaves/

“The first inter-communal violence in the recent history of Cyprus was, in fact, caused by T.M.T. This was the result of a policy of hate cultivated by the Turkish Cypriot leadership and it aimed at persuading world public opinion that Turkish Cypriots could not co-exist with Greek Cypriots and, therefore, partition in one form or another was necessary. On 12 June 1958 eight innocent and unarmed Greek Cypriot civilians from Kondemenos village were murdered by T.M.T. terrorists near the Turkish populated village of Geunyeli...... "http://www.kypros.org/Cyprus_Problem/p_TMT.html

[Viewpoint]

Please clarify what exactly you are trying to prove by stating the TMT killed TCs because they opposed Taksim and wanted to live together with GCs, why arent you in the same breath also giving us details that eoka terrorists killed innocent GCs for opposing enosis and wanting to live together with TCs and also not known as supporters of taksim?

Thank you again for your reply, Viewpoint. Allow me to clarify the point I am trying to make. What I want to suggest is that the TMT's terrorist campaign was not a simple reaction against enosis but was in fact a rival policy of violence and self-segregation that was against peaceful co-existence and independence. Why do I think this?

Theres nothing simple about, developments in Cyprus history were triggered off by one another, if it wasn't for Gcs greed forcing enosis taksim would never have been pursued and the island would not have been divided.

If the TMT's aim was to prevent enosis why would they target and murder innocent Turkish Cypriots who were not in favour of enosis at all? There can be only one explanation: the TMT terrorists were not in fact simply responding to GC demands for enosis made during the colonial era but were actively engaged in an armed insurrection against Cypriot independence and peaceful co-existence between GCs and TCs. Otherwise why would the TMT terrorists kill innocent Turkish Cypriot activists?

You appear to be slightly confused now that we have established that the taksim ideology was a direct response and counter movement against enosis/eoka we can now appreciate that those that opposed taksim or put another the fight against Gcs and their enosis dream or sympathized with GCs who wanted to give the island to Greece or wanted to live together were seen at traitors and against their cause which was the same on the side you conveniently forget that innocent Gcs were also killed by eoka for not supporting their cause. You are trying to twist and separate the two issues Tcs were against enosis not independence you cannot camouflage one with the other, you say you fought the Brits for independence and we aligned with the Brits but our fear was what would follow once you had gained independence to do as you wished which was ultimate enosis.

Evidence for this comes from none other than the UN Secretary General at the time, who claimed with some authority that the TMT terrorists and the Turkish leadership were involved in a campaign to make Cyprus ungovernable, to foment civil war and to enforce self-segregation upon the TCs.

We had to take action to oppose you as you were not accepting us as equals and we were discriminated against made into second class citizens, so the segregation may have happen physically when Tcs fled for their lives when the home were ransacked and burnt down but well before then when you applied your so called democracy and human rights for just GCs. The actions of Tcs only came as a direct response to your own hungry struggle listen to the pervert makarios speak after independence and you will soon understand that even then the enosis dream was still alive and kicking. the constitution you despise so much was also a directs imprint of measures and counter measures to ensure you were given the freedom to unite with Greece who the TCs fiercely opposed.

So what does this prove? I am certainly not trying to ignore EOKA's murder of known leftists, for whatever reasons, during the 1950s. The point is to clarify that even though the majority of GCs abandoned enosis in the 1960s and are today overwhelmingly in favour of Cypriot independence, the TC and TMT policies of self-segregation and partition are still with us today. Of the two communities, the TCs are the ones who are stuck in the past, unable to move on.

As i mentioned above listen to the speaches after 1960 and you will discover that the enosis dream was still alive and kicking, the Aktritas plan is testament to this truth. In the face of such a truth and the resurfacing of inter communal conflict the TCs were forced to return to their fight to carve themselves a safe haven via taksim. The past shapes the future the fact that you failed in your fight for enosis and we succeeded in realizing physical taksim does not mean we are stuck in the past as it is the past that has brought us to this point. One the arrow leaves the bow can you stop it? all you can do is live with the consequences and try to make your current situation into the best one possible.

Until the TCs renounce their own adherence to violent self-segregation, their inheritance from the TMT terrorists, then they will be always stuck in the 1960s, murdering and sacrificing their own people and community to the interests of Ankara.

We made that decision in 1974 and again in 1983, there is no going back Cyprus has been changed forever, time you realized this nothing stands still. All that we can do is try to go forward by understanding whether uniting with GCs in the EU will make our lives far better than what it is today....to date i have yet to read or see anything that warrants us giving up the TRNC even with all its problem and barriers for a life ruled by GCs in a GC state.

[Hermes]

Thanks for your contribution, Viewpoint. That was a long reply by your standards. But you only briefly address my key argument, which was not to establish what came first: taksim or enosis. But to ask why the TMT murdered TC activists and what are the implications of this for understanding current TC attitudes towards a solution.

I think your contribution is still helpful in this regard. In response to my central point that the TCs are trapped still in an adherence to violent self-segregation, an inheritance from the TMT terrorists, you state approvingly that "this is your choice" "made in 1974 and 1983" and "there's no going back from it".

In effect, you concur with my thesis that today's TC partitionists are stuck in and repeating the policies of self-segregation of the 1960s. As a delberate choice. That they haven't moved on from the idea of partition and indeed this is not a reaction to "enosis" (which no GC advocates anymore) but is against the idea of Cypriot independence and peaceful co-existence.

In effect, you strongly suggest that no-one is forcing you into "isolation" but yourselves. Further, you agree with my key conclusion that TC segregationism, which you approve of, is in effect still sacrificing the TC community to the interests of Ankara, as it did in the 1960s.

I think this is an important point to get out in the open as it clears up a lot of misunderstandings. The TCs are, in effect, the perpetrators of their own isolation through violently enforced policies of self-segregation. Their objective is against peaceful co-operation with the GCs. Moreover, in pursuit of violent self-segregation they are still the dupes of Ankara.

As usual, your contribution has helped us all to see things in a much clearer light.

[Viewpoint]

Thanks for your contribution, Viewpoint. That was a long reply by your standards. But you only briefly address my key argument, which was not to establish what came first: taksim or enosis. But to ask why the TMT murdered TC activists and what are the implications of this for understanding current TC attitudes towards a solution.

I think your contribution is still helpful in this regard. In response to my central point that the TCs are trapped still in an adherence to violent self-segregation, an inheritance from the TMT terrorists, you state approvingly that "this is your choice" "made in 1974 and 1983" and "there's no going back from it".

In effect, you concur with my thesis that today's TC partitionists are stuck in and repeating the policies of self-segregation of the 1960s. As a delberate choice. That they haven't moved on from the idea of partition and indeed this is not a reaction to "enosis" (which no GC advocates anymore) but is against the idea of Cypriot independence and peaceful co-existence.

In effect, you strongly suggest that no-one is forcing you into "isolation" but yourselves. Further, you agree with my key conclusion that TC segregationism, which you approve of, is in effect still sacrificing the TC community to the interests of Ankara, as it did in the 1960s.

I think this is an important point to get out in the open as it clears up a lot of misunderstandings. The TCs are, in effect, the perpetrators of their own isolation through violently enforced policies of self-segregation. Their objective is against peaceful co-operation with the GCs. Moreover, in pursuit of violent self-segregation they are still the dupes of Ankara.

As usual, your contribution has helped us all to see things in a much clearer light.

Again you are twisting and fabricating details to fit your own agenda which is to take the onerous of enosis and place the blame 100% on taksim, you cannot do this has they go hand in hand. I will yet again attempt to clarify what happened and why we are divided today in a few simple words.

Without enosis there would never have been taksim.

[kurupetos]

VP, aren't you bored posting BS from morning until midnight?

[Hermes]

Again you are twisting and fabricating details to fit your own agenda which is to take the onerous of enosis and place the blame 100% on taksim, you cannot do this has they go hand in hand. I will yet again attempt to clarify what happened and why we are divided today in a few simple words.

Without enosis there would never have been taksim.

VP, how come you always end up missing the point? If taksim (or partition) was directed against enosis how come the TMT murdered innocent TC activitists whose only "crime" was to campaign for peaceful co-existence? Don't you see a problem here?

That is why I maintain that taksim was a campaign in reality not against enosis but against Cypriot independence and peaceful co-existence between GCs and TCs.

I go further, whereas the GCs have long since abandoned enosis as a goal, the TCs are still pursuing the TMT's policies of violently-enforced self-segregation or "taksim". In effect, the TCs are still the dupes of Ankara and are still sacrificing their community in pursuit of Ankara's policies.