Cyprus-Forum.com

[bill cobbett]

The headlines in the offer from Piratis comes across as 18% Territory, all human rights respected, autonomy in a northern zone for internal matters, central federal government elected by majority popular vote with an effective say for all groups, with guarantees from bodies such as EU, UN and Nato (would add OSCE to that list) and up to 50,000 settlers stay...

(oooh hope have got that summary right????)

... Seems Very Fair and Very Equitable, an offer no one can argue with surely??? ... VP, Bir et al don't you think?? Bananiot and Halil .... Happy with that ????

If we are to go down to 18% then why accept this offer? an independent state would be more appropriate and healthy.

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen, straight from the horses mouth. The partitionist in action. She has just confirmed what we have been saying all long. A turk at work.

Yes, didn't expect VP to rush to be first in the queue to give us a thumbs up to a Very Fair Offer from P.

Wonder what Bir and Halil will say ???? Come along boys don't you be hiding your zivania under a bush now, you hear?

Oh and Bananiot will you also confirm that as a result of the Very Equitable Offer you will in future be referring to our P as a former nationalist or a reformed nationalist even ????

(Gosh ... this is so exciting, can't wait to hear that Bir and Halil accept the offer and that Cyprob is settled)

Personally i have little problem with this plan,as long as the details are satisfactorily filled in...But most TCs living in the trnc will not accept the 18% land share ,and more importantly will want Turkey to be in the guarantee picture somewhat prominantly...

Reh Bananiot...

VP as to be expected has rejected the offer from Piratis.

Bir has given an indication of interest but is not hopeful that the % and guarantees will get past a ref in the Occupied Areas.

You on the other hand have said nothing constructive are persisting with the usual get nowhere general criticisms of CF and the alleged nationalist views of some members.

Now that P has got off his negotiating position, will you please strike while the iron is hot, get off your high horse as well and let us know with some constructive suggestions as to whether P's offer interests you as well. Where it's good, where it ain't so good. Thank you.

[Kikapu]

%18 is much easier for GCs to swamp, dont you want freedom of movement and settlement as well? as you know this is EU aquis, but for us it spells great danger leaving the door wide open to manipulation and dissemblance of the TC state by the majority GCs.

You could always ask to have the same system as the Native American Indians have, which will solve ALL your above concerns. If you don't know what they are, let me know and I will tell it to you.

[Piratis]

You are really pathetic. So according to you the problem in 1800s was not the fact that the Cypriot people were opressed by the Ottomans and were discriminated against because of their ethnicity/religion, but that the Cypriot people wanted their freedom (as obviously was the case with all parts of our nation which were under Ottoman rule - in 1800 there was no Greek state to achieve enosis with. If Cyprus was liberated from back then our island would be part of the initial Greek State, no enosis would be needed).

We are not talking about the problems in the 1800s...We are talking about the germinal cause of the big split between the TCs and GCs which led to the present stalemate...
Piratis,for the TCs Enosis was not a liberation struggle,it was a death sentence...The idea that Cyprus might one day be part of their sworn enemy ,Greece,was sending shivers in all TC backs...That is why they sided with whoever came along and offered them help...Time you accepted and acknowledged this historical fact...

So even for that era, according to you who started the problem was not the Turks that invaded and oppressed us, but the Cypriots because they revolted seeking their freedom and the right to do what they want with their own island. The Turks have ALWAYS been the ones who started every war and conflict in Cyprus in their attempt to oppress us and impose their rule against the democratically expressed choices of the Cypriot people.

Not this one...The cause of our present day conflict is your megali idea,Enosis...You mustve known when you started along that road that the TCs would resist you with all their might...Yet,you didnt gfive a damn then and you don't give a damn now what we think or believe or want...Your method has always been crush through or crush...Well,you crushed badly then,and you will crush even worse this time...

If you haven't noticed we are at war because you illegally occupy 1/3rd of our island. And we are not going to make any peace with you until you give back what you stole. And now you come here to blame me because I am willing to fight for the freedom of my country against the invaders? No my friend, the ones who are to be blamed are the invaders and none else.

We are at war because you wanted to give away ALL of our island to Greece.As a result of this dastardly deed many TCs lost everything their ancestors worked hard to built for hundreds of years,my family amongst them...So don't talk to me about stolen land,you will get no sympathy...I blame you because you still want to turn Cyprus into a Greek island...I know you dont see us that way but the TCs are no invaders,we have been the inhabitans here for centuries...Get that into your thick skull.

Whose side will you be if/when we came to liberate our own lands? The side of those who fight for the freedom of Cyprus from the illegal Turkish occupation, or the side of the foreign Turkish army fighting to preserve an illegal occupation? If you will be helping the Turkish army with the crimes it commits against us (as most TCs do) then you are the enemy and should be treated accordingly. What else did you expect?

I don't know...you tell me ,Piratis...My land is near Paphos in the South...I have only been there for a visit once in 40 years,I found the houses I lived in demolished,and the place turned into a pig farm...Who do you think I should support? Who is my enemy,you tell me...

You started talking about the 1800s my friend. According to you it was all fine when we were under the Ottoman empire, where you could enjoy privileges on our expense, and the problem started only when we wanted our freedom like all other Greek islands and territories.

No my friend, the problem started when you first invaded our island and oppressed us. You have been separate from us right from the beginning, with the Ottomans giving to you privileges and rights on our expense. The problem continues today because you still show no respect to the human and democratic rights of the Cypriot people (unlike the Latin minority). You continue to want to have special privileges on our expense and to undemocratically take decisions for Cyprus.

Just as I thought...You ignored everything I said and returned to your idea of the reason why we are in this mess now :Because the Ottomans captured cyprus in 1571....It is impossible to have a logical or sensible excahange of ideas with you...Your brain has only one track...You are programmed to repeat the same arguments adinfinitum...You are not a bot by any chance???

The answer was given to you in a very clear way. The only reason I repeat things is that you are too stupid to understand them. I will not repeat them now, just read my previous post, I even highlighted the important part to make it easier for you. The answer you get from me is based on principles. My principles do not change. Therefore you will always get the same answer. Or did you think that if you asked us to surrender our human and democratic rights 1000 times in the end we will say "hey, lets give a different answer this time: YES"

You are the one who said that the problems we have today is because we wanted our freedom from Ottomans in the 1800s ( cyprus36322-310.html?hilit=1800s#p697778 ). You got your answer: The problem in the 1800s was the Ottoman oppression, not the Cypriot people that wanted their freedom. If you don't like to hear about this fact, then better don't talk about the 1800s.

[Piratis]

%18 is much easier for GCs to swamp, dont you want freedom of movement and settlement as well? as you know this is EU aquis, but for us it spells great danger leaving the door wide open to manipulation and dissemblance of the TC state by the majority GCs.

In what way it is easier for GCs to "swamp" the 18% than a 29%? Quite the contrary. Your population will be the same, regardless if the land will be 18% or 29%. If TCs are concentrated in the 18% of land then even if all our refugees return to that 18%, the TCs will still be the majority. But if the TCs keep 29% of land, then if all GC refugees return to that 29% of land, then TCs can become the minority.

It is just a cheap excuse. Your real reason is that you want to keep under your command as much of Cyprus as possible.

[Viewpoint]

%18 is much easier for GCs to swamp, dont you want freedom of movement and settlement as well? as you know this is EU aquis, but for us it spells great danger leaving the door wide open to manipulation and dissemblance of the TC state by the majority GCs.

In what way it is easier for GCs to "swamp" the 18% than a 29%? Quite the contrary. Your population will be the same, regardless if the land will be 18% or 29%. If TCs are concentrated in the 18% of land then even if all our refugees return to that 18%, the TCs will still be the majority. But if the TCs keep 29% of land, then if all GC refugees return to that 29% of land, then TCs can become the minority.

It is just a cheap excuse. Your real reason is that you want to keep under your command as much of Cyprus as possible.

I have explained this before but will do so again for your benefit Piratis,

If we are reduced to 18% many TCs will not move form their villages so our numbers will automatically dwindle, lets say for thos example we are 250,000 people in 37% we go down to 18% our numbers go down to 120,000, we also have to recognized that everyone can move and settle where ever they wish its in the EU aquis.

There are 2 scenarios:

If we have 50 seat upper house with proportional representation we will get 9 members in the upper house but if the voting balance is 25+1 to pass a bill we cannot stop or oppose any bill because the GC MPs have the advantage as they have 41 seats.

Now if we opt for an equal balance of 25 GC MPs and 25 TC MPs then all the GCs have to do in order to gain power is encourage a small number of GCs to move into the TC state. To produce 25 TC MPs each one on average would have to get on average approx 4800 votes or less allowing for the people who cannot vote, all the GCs have to do arrange for 4800 GCs to reside in one MPs constituent to sway the votes in favour of their candidate and bingo they have the 1 seat necessary to swing the power in their direction...maybe thats the swing in power you are on about Piratis.

Now if we to reduce land to 25% this would mean the majority of TCs would remain within that 25% giving us say a population of 210,000 then GCs would have to try and get far more GCs to move north to gain the one seat necessary to gain power over the whole island.

To combat this my suggestion was that the upper could have proportional representation but to pass a bill a certain number of TC and GC vote would be necessary ratify or change a bill.

So now do you understand that dangers we face when you demand we go down to 18%, if we are to agree to such a adical reduction then the question begs to be asked why not just separate once and for all and have our own individual countries where there would no longer be any risks or problems.

[Bananiot]

I have stated by case clearly Bill, perhaps you missed it. Giving TCs minority status simply isn't on. Political equality for the TCs has been agreed by us and it is strongly supported by the United Nations in all Resolutions. Piratis offers minority rights to the TCs (how grand of him, for he states clearly that we shouldn't but we will make the compromise) and he asks them to accept something far less than what we agreed to offer in high level talks and agreements, and which has been endorsed by the UN.

Can you not see that this is a non starter, Bill? It is in fact a joke, to say the least.

[Piratis]

%18 is much easier for GCs to swamp, dont you want freedom of movement and settlement as well? as you know this is EU aquis, but for us it spells great danger leaving the door wide open to manipulation and dissemblance of the TC state by the majority GCs.

In what way it is easier for GCs to "swamp" the 18% than a 29%? Quite the contrary. Your population will be the same, regardless if the land will be 18% or 29%. If TCs are concentrated in the 18% of land then even if all our refugees return to that 18%, the TCs will still be the majority. But if the TCs keep 29% of land, then if all GC refugees return to that 29% of land, then TCs can become the minority.

It is just a cheap excuse. Your real reason is that you want to keep under your command as much of Cyprus as possible.

I have explained this before but will do so again for your benefit Piratis,

If we are reduced to 18% many TCs will not move form their villages so our numbers will automatically dwindle, lets say for thos example we are 250,000 people in 37% we go down to 18% our numbers go down to 120,000, we also have to recognized that everyone can move and settle where ever they wish its in the EU aquis.

There are 2 scenarios:

If we have 50 seat upper house with proportional representation we will get 9 members in the upper house but if the voting balance is 25+1 to pass a bill we cannot stop or oppose any bill because the GC MPs have the advantage as they have 41 seats.

Now if we opt for an equal balance of 25 GC MPs and 25 TC MPs then all the GCs have to do in order to gain power is encourage a small number of GCs to move into the TC state. To produce 25 TC MPs each one on average would have to get on average approx 4800 votes or less allowing for the people who cannot vote, all the GCs have to do arrange for 4800 GCs to reside in one MPs constituent to sway the votes in favour of their candidate and bingo they have the 1 seat necessary to swing the power in their direction...maybe thats the swing in power you are on about Piratis.

Now if we to reduce land to 25% this would mean the majority of TCs would remain within that 25% giving us say a population of 210,000 then GCs would have to try and get far more GCs to move north to gain the one seat necessary to gain power over the whole island.

To combat this my suggestion was that the upper could have proportional representation but to pass a bill a certain number of TC and GC vote would be necessary ratify or change a bill.

So now do you understand that dangers we face when you demand we go down to 18%, if we are to agree to such a adical reduction then the question begs to be asked why not just separate once and for all and have our own individual countries where there would no longer be any risks or problems.

VP, an 18% minority can not have 50% power. Such demand kills the prospect of any agreement.

If you agreed on an 18% - 82% land share, dividing with the same proportion coastline and resources, then I would agree on two individual countries as long as the human rights of all Cypriots were protected.

[Piratis]

I have stated by case clearly Bill, perhaps you missed it. Giving TCs minority status simply isn't on. Political equality for the TCs has been agreed by us and it is strongly supported by the United Nations in all Resolutions. Piratis offers minority rights to the TCs (how grand of him, for he states clearly that we shouldn't but we will make the compromise) and he asks them to accept something far less than what we agreed to offer in high level talks and agreements, and which has been endorsed by the UN.

Can you not see that this is a non starter, Bill? It is in fact a joke, to say the least.

What is a joke is expect the 82% majority to accept to share 50%-50% power with an 18% minority in a "solution" that will officially Turkify 29% of Cyprus. It will never happen.

[Kikapu]

If we are reduced to 18% many TCs will not move form their villages so our numbers will automatically dwindle, lets say for thos example we are 250,000 people in 37% we go down to 18% our numbers go down to 120,000, we also have to recognized that everyone can move and settle where ever they wish its in the EU aquis.

How many TC's from your fictitious 250,000 would move to the 18% if the island was divided along 82%-18%?

[Viewpoint]

%18 is much easier for GCs to swamp, dont you want freedom of movement and settlement as well? as you know this is EU aquis, but for us it spells great danger leaving the door wide open to manipulation and dissemblance of the TC state by the majority GCs.

In what way it is easier for GCs to "swamp" the 18% than a 29%? Quite the contrary. Your population will be the same, regardless if the land will be 18% or 29%. If TCs are concentrated in the 18% of land then even if all our refugees return to that 18%, the TCs will still be the majority. But if the TCs keep 29% of land, then if all GC refugees return to that 29% of land, then TCs can become the minority.

It is just a cheap excuse. Your real reason is that you want to keep under your command as much of Cyprus as possible.

I have explained this before but will do so again for your benefit Piratis,

If we are reduced to 18% many TCs will not move form their villages so our numbers will automatically dwindle, lets say for thos example we are 250,000 people in 37% we go down to 18% our numbers go down to 120,000, we also have to recognized that everyone can move and settle where ever they wish its in the EU aquis.

There are 2 scenarios:

If we have 50 seat upper house with proportional representation we will get 9 members in the upper house but if the voting balance is 25+1 to pass a bill we cannot stop or oppose any bill because the GC MPs have the advantage as they have 41 seats.

Now if we opt for an equal balance of 25 GC MPs and 25 TC MPs then all the GCs have to do in order to gain power is encourage a small number of GCs to move into the TC state. To produce 25 TC MPs each one on average would have to get on average approx 4800 votes or less allowing for the people who cannot vote, all the GCs have to do arrange for 4800 GCs to reside in one MPs constituent to sway the votes in favour of their candidate and bingo they have the 1 seat necessary to swing the power in their direction...maybe thats the swing in power you are on about Piratis.

Now if we to reduce land to 25% this would mean the majority of TCs would remain within that 25% giving us say a population of 210,000 then GCs would have to try and get far more GCs to move north to gain the one seat necessary to gain power over the whole island.

To combat this my suggestion was that the upper could have proportional representation but to pass a bill a certain number of TC and GC vote would be necessary ratify or change a bill.

So now do you understand that dangers we face when you demand we go down to 18%, if we are to agree to such a adical reduction then the question begs to be asked why not just separate once and for all and have our own individual countries where there would no longer be any risks or problems.

VP, an 18% minority can not have 50% power. Such demand kills the prospect of any agreement.

If you agreed on an 18% - 82% land share, dividing with the same proportion coastline and resources, then I would agree on two individual countries as long as the human rights of all Cypriots were protected.

Now we are getting somewhere.Which human rights exactly remembering we would be out of the EU and you in it.