Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Heavens sake! VP when did you ever see me post anyting about caving in etc?

Others here accuse me of being cynical when I say that BBF is partition with another name. Under this BBF thing we have agreed on, how can the TC community possibly be called to cave in and such? With a priori political equality, separate territory, separate administration, separate police etc.?

Apparently your leaders do not agree with you. The few points on which they tend to reach agreement quickly is the governance sections of the talks. It is the rest that seem problematic.

Your side wants to leave a BBF wide open to manipulation using its population, getting Turkey out of the picture to do as they wish taking control over the whole island, pushing us into minority status in our own country.

What do you expect us to do cave in?

[Nikitas]

I have told you before, if you have Turkey, then there will be Greece, and the two together have proved what they can do. Apparently the first round was not enough for you, you want a second round. Go for it. It is obvious in the end each motherland will guaranteed only the community it represents, which will be touted as an acceptable compromise etc. Then the fun starts. Cypriots never learn. If you think that trained military men are going to sit on their ass all day long, and be around just in case, you are dead wrong. They will plan things. Planning leads to preparations and silly code named "contingecy" plans, and the rest we know.

[repulsewarrior]

You are not being serious humanist. I am sorry but you are getting more childish as time goes by.

This is what the United Nations want both sides to do in Cyprus.

Reaffirms its position that a Cyprus settlement must be based on a State of Cyprus with a single sovereignty and international personality and a single citizenship, with its independence and territorial integrity safeguarded, and comprising two politically equal communities as described in the relevant Security Council resolutions, in a bi-communal and bi-zonal federation, and that such a settlement must exclude union in whole or in part with any other country or any form of partition or secession;

If you are a super power you can disagree with the above. If not, you must be the village idiot to even contemplate a different kind of solution.

if you read carefully Cyprus will require three governing bodies. how does this square with the debate as it is progressing here on this site? it seems i am not a village idiot when i talk of a State and within this State, National Assemblies, but there is little discussion by everyone else, other than something entirely different. You see the Problem is not "Greek" / "Turk" (unless you want Cyprus to be "Turk" or "Greek"), the Problem is giving a voice to Persons, Personal Rights if you will, as well as Individual Rights.

[Piratis]

Piratis argument is based on false logic.

What we have now is bad. As time passes a solution might become harder to achieve with negotiations but our situation will not become any worst than it already is. It is the TCs who have to worry about being assimilated by mainland Turks, not us.

First, it is not a matter of the TCs now but rather a matter of Turkey. TCs will make little difference, even if the vast majority of them want Turkey out. Secondly, our situation has been turning to the worse ever since 1974 and it will keep turning to the worse. Without solution taiwanisation is certain at first which will soon be followed by recognition by Islamic countries in the beginning. The north will be flooded with more settlers (a Turk goes a Turk comes - remember this one?) and suddenly we would have to defend a 200 km border with Turkey. Our economy will be strangled because in the globalised environment, political security is a must for much needed foreign investors.

Thus, Piratis is building his hopes on sand. His arguments are based on false assumptions and are totally insignificant. There can be only one starting point for all of us who fear that without solution Cyprus is doomed. POLITICAL EQUALITY OF THE TWO COMMUNITIES as an integral part of any agreed solution. This is the only way to save Cyprus and while I am at it, may I also remind some people in here that partition is not just the aspiration of Turkish nationalism but it is also the dream for Greek nationalism who would rather see Cyprus go down the drain than share power with the TCs. Remember the second best solution of Papadopoulos? Can you guess what the first choice was (is)?

Most TCs don't want Turkey out. If they wanted then they could cooperate with us to achieve this aim. They don’t.

What exactly is worst today than 1974 for us? Our economy? Our standards of living? You are talking nonsense. Nothing is worst today than it was in 1974. If you have a REAL solution to offer that will actually make our situation BETTER than it is today then tell us about it. So far the only thing that you are proposing is not a solution but something that will create for us bigger problems.

We have more far political security, stability and everything that is needed for foreign investors today, than we would have under some racist, undemocratic system which would be unstable and unworkable. If the "solution" that you want was forced in Cyprus I would take all my property out of the island, let alone expecting foreigners to come to invest in some state which has some experimental undemocratic system that brakes every rule that is followed by succesful democracies.

What Bananiot wants is not a solution but a dissolution. It is a usual Turkish tactic to use a word to describe the exact opposite of what that word actually means. The Turks called their invasion that murdered 1000s and ethnically cleansed 100s of thousands a "peace operation". Now they call the plan to officially divide our island and destroy the whole of Cyprus a "solution".

I want a REAL solution as much as any other Greek Cypriot, and I want real peace as much as most other human beings. What I don't want is the Turkish versions of "peace" and "solution" (and "unity", "equality" etc) since for the Turks these words mean the exact opposite than what they mean to us.

[Bananiot]

You are really blind Piratis if you cannot see that the situation as it is today can not linger on for ever. In fact, if one reads between the lines of what you say, you probably understand that the ideal solution you want is not possible and that you prefer Cyprus to be officially and forever divided. Your logic points to this direction. Either "just" solution as you understand it, or partition, because partition will be, and official! Between a compromise solution and partition you prefer partition and of course the turkification of the north. Those Turkish Cypriots who want to preserve their identity can come and reclaim their properties. In the north there will be a semi-state to start with and in the south, the London-Zurich agreements will reign supreme. Practically this is what you are striving for and tragically you view yourself as a patriot. Your kind of patriotism has inflicted great sufferings to this hapless place.

[Piratis]

You are really pathetic. So according to you the problem in 1800s was not the fact that the Cypriot people were opressed by the Ottomans and were discriminated against because of their ethnicity/religion, but that the Cypriot people wanted their freedom (as obviously was the case with all parts of our nation which were under Ottoman rule - in 1800 there was no Greek state to achieve enosis with. If Cyprus was liberated from back then our island would be part of the initial Greek State, no enosis would be needed).

We are not talking about the problems in the 1800s...We are talking about the germinal cause of the big split between the TCs and GCs which led to the present stalemate...
Piratis,for the TCs Enosis was not a liberation struggle,it was a death sentence...The idea that Cyprus might one day be part of their sworn enemy ,Greece,was sending shivers in all TC backs...That is why they sided with whoever came along and offered them help...Time you accepted and acknowledged this historical fact...

So even for that era, according to you who started the problem was not the Turks that invaded and oppressed us, but the Cypriots because they revolted seeking their freedom and the right to do what they want with their own island. The Turks have ALWAYS been the ones who started every war and conflict in Cyprus in their attempt to oppress us and impose their rule against the democratically expressed choices of the Cypriot people.

Not this one...The cause of our present day conflict is your megali idea,Enosis...You mustve known when you started along that road that the TCs would resist you with all their might...Yet,you didnt gfive a damn then and you don't give a damn now what we think or believe or want...Your method has always been crush through or crush...Well,you crushed badly then,and you will crush even worse this time...

If you haven't noticed we are at war because you illegally occupy 1/3rd of our island. And we are not going to make any peace with you until you give back what you stole. And now you come here to blame me because I am willing to fight for the freedom of my country against the invaders? No my friend, the ones who are to be blamed are the invaders and none else.

We are at war because you wanted to give away ALL of our island to Greece.As a result of this dastardly deed many TCs lost everything their ancestors worked hard to built for hundreds of years,my family amongst them...So don't talk to me about stolen land,you will get no sympathy...I blame you because you still want to turn Cyprus into a Greek island...I know you dont see us that way but the TCs are no invaders,we have been the inhabitans here for centuries...Get that into your thick skull.

Whose side will you be if/when we came to liberate our own lands? The side of those who fight for the freedom of Cyprus from the illegal Turkish occupation, or the side of the foreign Turkish army fighting to preserve an illegal occupation? If you will be helping the Turkish army with the crimes it commits against us (as most TCs do) then you are the enemy and should be treated accordingly. What else did you expect?

I don't know...you tell me ,Piratis...My land is near Paphos in the South...I have only been there for a visit once in 40 years,I found the houses I lived in demolished,and the place turned into a pig farm...Who do you think I should support? Who is my enemy,you tell me...

You started talking about the 1800s my friend. According to you it was all fine when we were under the Ottoman empire, where you could enjoy privileges on our expense, and the problem started only when we wanted our freedom like all other Greek islands and territories.

No my friend, the problem started when you first invaded our island and oppressed us. You have been separate from us right from the beginning, with the Ottomans giving to you privileges and rights on our expense. The problem continues today because you still show no respect to the human and democratic rights of the Cypriot people (unlike the Latin minority). You continue to want to have special privileges on our expense and to undemocratically take decisions for Cyprus.

[Piratis]

You are really blind Piratis if you cannot see that the situation as it is today can not linger on for ever. In fact, if one reads between the lines of what you say, you probably understand that the ideal solution you want is not possible and that you prefer Cyprus to be officially and forever divided. Your logic points to this direction. Either "just" solution as you understand it, or partition, because partition will be, and official! Between a compromise solution and partition you prefer partition and of course the turkification of the north. Those Turkish Cypriots who want to preserve their identity can come and reclaim their properties. In the north there will be a semi-state to start with and in the south, the London-Zurich agreements will reign supreme. Practically this is what you are striving for and tragically you view yourself as a patriot. Your kind of patriotism has inflicted great sufferings to this hapless place.

You don't need to read between any lines because I write in the most direct and clear way. I am not after an "ideal" but a real solution that will at least be better than the problem. I gave an example of such solution yesterday:

"If the TCs want a solution then they should drop their outrageous demands to a level that will be acceptable. For example they can keep part of Cyprus under federal TC administration (something which they do not have the right for, but it will be our compromise), but that part of Cyprus should be about 18%. When it comes to Cyprus as a whole the central government should be elected democratically by the Cypriot people as a whole and there can be some minimum required TC participation (e.g. certain numbers of ministers being TC). Any guarantees should come from international organizations, e.g. UN, EU and NATO, while the number of Settlers that will stay should not be over 50.000 total. The human rights of all Cypriots should be respected."

Between no-solution and a solution, I of course choose solution.

Between no-solution and a bigger problem, I choose no-solution. The fact that you label as a "solution" what in fact is a bigger problem, doesn't make it any better for me. For me what is important is the essence, not the label. Would you drink a poison if it was labeled "lemonade"?

Official partition is what we would have if we had accepted the Annan partition plan that would officially create a Greek Cyprus and a Turkish Cyprus. What I prefer is for Cyprus to be truly liberated and united. If that is not possible then of course I prefer the division to remain illegal, than to legalize it with some Annan plan. Even if the pseudo state was to achieve a "Taiwan" status, that would still not be as bad as the official partition of Annan plan, which on top of the partition would also create a ton more problems.

Unless there is a solution that we can accept there will be no London-Zurich agreements in the free areas alone. The TCs tried and failed to gain access to the unfair privileges they were entitled to before 74. If they want to come to the free areas and live as equal Cypriot citizens and join us in the struggle against the invaders, no problem with me. I don't have a problem to share Cyprus with other Cypriot citizens in a fair and democratic way.

[Get Real!]

"If the TCs want a solution then they should drop their outrageous demands to a level that will be acceptable.

Nobody can deny that they want a solution… only you’ll never like theirs any more than they like yours.

So it’s never a question of WHO wants it but WHAT is wanted.

In Cyprus, the word “solution” has become the word with a thousand meanings.

[Piratis]

"If the TCs want a solution then they should drop their outrageous demands to a level that will be acceptable.

Nobody can deny that they want a solution… only you’ll never like theirs any more than they like yours.

So it’s never a question of WHO wants it but WHAT is wanted.

In Cyprus, the word “solution” has become the word with a thousand meanings.

It is the same with the word "problem". For Hitler the problem were the Jews, the solution was to turn them into soap. Just because some people choose to define the problem and its solution in their own unethical ways this doesn't mean we should tolerate their views.

For me solution means human rights, freedom and democracy. These are the universal principles that every successful state strives for. If the TCs do not agree on this, then it is a waste of time to negotiate with them, just like it was a waste of time to negotiate with the Nazis.

[Bananiot]

You criminally underestimate the effects of no solution Piratis and it is doubly criminal that you want your solution here and now. Nothing less, nothing more. This you can only impose by military means and if you had this capability, you would soon forget about human rights, freedom and democracy. You have been known to do this in other instances, along with a few other of the forum patriots.

You keep saying:

TCs can keep part of Cyprus under federal TC administration (something which they do not have the right for, but it will be our compromise), but that part of Cyprus should be about 18%. When it comes to Cyprus as a whole the central government should be elected democratically by the Cypriot people as a whole and there can be some minimum required TC participation (e.g. certain numbers of ministers being TC). Any guarantees should come from international organizations, e.g. UN, EU and NATO, while the number of Settlers that will stay should not be over 50.000 total. The human rights of all Cypriots should be respected."

You damn well know that for 3 decades we have been urged by the UN (and successive CY governments beginning with Makarios have agreed to this) to seek a Federal Cyprus with a single sovereignty and international personality and a single citizenship, with its independence and territorial integrity safeguarded, and comprising two politically equal communities as described in the relevant Security Council resolutions, in a bi-communal and bi-zonal federation

Can we really go back, and ask now the UN to change its resolutions and ask the TCs to accept minority status? Are you serious about this? This, a baby can tell you, can only be imposed after a succesfull military campaign. Do you want me to believe that you would care so much for the TCs after military success?