Cyprus-Forum.com

[boulio]

You are so lazy at times, VP. You need things spelling out for you. The current proposals of the Turkish side provide for the dissolution of the Republic of Cyprus, the establishment of two equal state entities, a loose confederation and the maintaining of Turkey’s strategic control of Cyprus through guarantees. Under those conditions the Turkish army will apparently withdraw.

In addition, Turkey wants a settlement which will become EU Primary Law, to allow permanent derogations from the acquis communautaire. In other words, permanent violations of human rights and fundamental freedoms. So the Turkish army leaves, but on condition it leaves behind a divided island, with a neutered sovereignty and its citizens with a diminished status and loss of their EU rights and freedoms.

What on earth makes you think the GCs will accept such a "solution"? You must be mad if you think the GCs will consent to a legal dismemberment of the RoC and permanently assign themselves the status of second-class citizens on their own island. No thanks. We'll keep what we have. Freedom in the south and legal sovereignty over the north. Until such time as Turkey comes to its senses. Now why do you have a problem with that?

one of the best posts every,the t/c and turks think that the ROC will give up all they have achieved in 37 years if brutal invasion and occupation for 7 % land returned and stationing a barbarian army 40 miles back were it belongs that could invade again in 5 minutes and tack the whole island with these half backed plans.

i for one would rather see a agreed partition than with a 75-25% land distribution than the roc disolving itself and turning into a banana republic.

[BirKibrisli]

Hermes,have I told you you are a prized idiot??? you have no idea where I stand on any issue ,do you? Where do I,or Bananiot for that matter, have ever argued that our peoples should live apart? We are trying hard to talk some sense into fools like you,so our country has a chance of reunification one day...We are two realists who know exactly how the present situation came about,and because we care for our country deeply we are struggling to overcome what we perceive are the obstacles on the path to reconsiliation..
We know Turkey,her army and settlers will not leave Cyprus unless a fair and equitable settlement is reached that will address peoples concerns regarding the past events...
We know that unless a solution is found soon,not only the unique TC identity and character would be extinguished in the North,but the unique GC identity and independence in the South would be threatened...We don't only see the past clearly,my idiotic friend,but we see the future as well...Cyprus will drown in the great Turkish sea unless we manage to overcome our stupid,obstinate refusal to acknowledge the mistakes of the past...It is fools like you who have no idea of what really went on in the past and what can go wrong in the future who are the danger to Cyprus' united future..But you are too stupid to realise it...

Bir,

Let us be serious for a moment. I'm sorry but we are not after a fair solution for the Turkish army. We are after a fair solution for Cypriots. In effect you see the Turkish occupation as a fait accompli and we should adjust to it. You tell us that there is no alternative but the reality of the Turkish occupation and we should cut a deal before it's too late. And what would such a deal consist of? Some kind of confederal nonsense of enforced separation, human rights abuses and a legalisation of Turkish crimes and plunder. And this is better than GCs currently have? In what way?

What you don't seem to understand is that we prefer what we have now than to give it up for some kind of dangerous half-baked confederal solution that would extend and legalize Turkey's involvement in our affairs. Ask yourself why is Turkey so resistant to the idea of a federal solution with EU guarantees for all Cypriot citizens? Because it would lose control and influence over the island. Do you believe that Turkey is negotiating in the interests of TCs? Or because of what happened in 1963? Of course not. Even you must see that Turkey is in these negotiations for itself and is trying to keep its presence on our island - by using the north's population as its proxies. A dangerous game considering our history.

Our resistance has everything to do with preventing any semblance of Turkish interference in our affairs. Instead of blaming the lack of progress on Turkish intransigence you blame us for wanting to control the island. That's true. But not so we dominate the TCs but so that the island is free of Turkey's malign influence. For our starting point is that Turkey is the problem in Cyprus. And until Turkey leaves us alone, there is little chance for peace between us.

OK,Hermes,lets be serious...
We are in a catch 22....You say until Turkey leaves us there is no chance of peace,and I say Turkey will not leave us unless there is peace...Now we have cut through everything,and we are at the heart of the problem...We are looking at the same sad situation from two opposing angles...And unless both of us shift somewhat from our positions there will NEVER be a solution...Or as someone else said a long time ago the present situation is the permanent solution...It is pointless going around the same old boring issues like why Turkey invaded,who is to be blamed and for how much of the fault...The point now is,will we agree to make the status quo permanent and move on with our separate lives,or will we agree to a compromise solution that might give us an opportunity to reunite as one nation,one people down the track...The GCs cannot have it both ways,Hermes...You cannot say,no we will never agree to making the status quo permanent AND,no, we will never agree to a compromise solution...This has been the sticking point all along...When you finally realise you have to chose between one of these options,the problem will be solved...If you keep sitting on the fence,there is no problem to be solved...Have I made myself clear???

[Viewpoint]

VP, you are a complete idiot. You delibertely twist everything Hermes rightly says to you in simple plain english terms and turn it into utter bollocks. Seriosly, if you're not in politics, you ought to b,e for the BS you are spouting.

Hermes, everyone else understands and agrees with you (except the Turks and bananiots of course), keep up the good work, because it is only by educating these fools, that we may just get them to comprehen our side, instead of them crying their crocodile tears over and over.

As for Birkturk, well he is just another facist, partitionist, racist, bigot like many of the other TCs here all crying foul, foul, foul.

Why would we be so stupid to surrender what we have for a darn sight less?? Just so that a few TCs will feel ' comfortable'. They either join us, or can go back to their motherland, settlers and armies in tow.

We need to up the ante ourselves as they are getting too cocky these days. There are a few GCs on this forum that would make good government officials, especially where the Cyprob is concerned. Anyone????

B25 you are just another simpleton after blood, your statement "Hermes, everyone else understands and agrees with you " is enough to proves why there will never be a solution..... in the face of such ignorance we TCs and Turks have to develop our bonds even further so the GCs with your mentality and that is unfortunately the majority never get the north back.

[Viewpoint]

You are so lazy at times, VP. You need things spelling out for you. The current proposals of the Turkish side provide for the dissolution of the Republic of Cyprus, the establishment of two equal state entities, a loose confederation and the maintaining of Turkey’s strategic control of Cyprus through guarantees. Under those conditions the Turkish army will apparently withdraw.

In addition, Turkey wants a settlement which will become EU Primary Law, to allow permanent derogations from the acquis communautaire. In other words, permanent violations of human rights and fundamental freedoms. So the Turkish army leaves, but on condition it leaves behind a divided island, with a neutered sovereignty and its citizens with a diminished status and loss of their EU rights and freedoms.

What on earth makes you think the GCs will accept such a "solution"? You must be mad if you think the GCs will consent to a legal dismemberment of the RoC and permanently assign themselves the status of second-class citizens on their own island. No thanks. We'll keep what we have. Freedom in the south and legal sovereignty over the north. Until such time as Turkey comes to its senses. Now why do you have a problem with that?

one of the best posts every,the t/c and turks think that the ROC will give up all they have achieved in 37 years if brutal invasion and occupation for 7 % land returned and stationing a barbarian army 40 miles back were it belongs that could invade again in 5 minutes and tack the whole island with these half backed plans.

i for one would rather see a agreed partition than with a 75-25% land distribution than the roc disolving itself and turning into a banana republic.

Wish more GCs would agree with you and then we could finally bring this matter to a close.

[BirKibrisli]

My dear Bill...You are just showing how little you really know of the goings on in Cyprus back in the 50s and 60s...Do you think it was my choice to sleep with a shotgun??? do you think it was my father's choice to help organise the TC defences against a possible/most probable GC irregulars/paramilitaries assault...You are deluding yourself if you believe all our fears were imaginary...I know life in England was not rosy for the migrants those days,but at least you were not afraid of being slaughtered in your own homes by those who considered you the enemy within...When you appreciate this point we can talk further...It is totally pointless at the moment,like the efforts of those young people...
don't get me wrong,I am all for measures to improve mutual trust,understanding,respect etc...but without facing up to the past I b elieve it is impossible...We have two communities suffering post traumatic stress disorder,Bill...Singing songs around a campfire will not heal them...And you must know that...

Hello dear Bir how are you my friend?
Well I happen to know your positions a long time ago. I am not saying you are wrong, but imo you are partly right. This fear that you talk about does exist among the older generations but not to the extend that you think. I would say it concentrates among specific groups as an example I could mention the village of the widows (those of Tochni). In general Kibrislis are very happy to meet Kypreoi, ask VP to confirm you if you like.
For some strange reason the Denktash regime kind of were constantly trying all these years to spread this fear among the whole Kibrisli population. It was considered part of their struggle, part of the way they could of succeed in what they wanted -partition i.e. In this respect it was rather comical to witnessed Kibrislis who were indifferent to the events of the past acting in a theatrical manner, pretending they are shit scared of the Kypreoi and each and everyone of them claiming they are from Tochni!! LOL.
Well after the opening of the gates things got clarified. Theatrical acts fell, and yes I insist that the majority of Kibrislis feel very happy meeting Kypreoi. There is just a slight element of mistrust in the air for BOTH sides-understandable after so many years of separation but that's all.

Although I wouldn't agree that a solution should concentrate primarily on those "fears" of the past from both sides, but in reality the so called BBF was actually primarily based on those! Yet we haven't moved one inch in achieving BBF, because of OTHER reasons. it is with Turkey we are dealing with here not with Kibrislis. The Kibrislis have no say at all, and Eroglu has just sealed everything for this and the next decade regarding their fate. So what comes next?? See my previous post

Hello,dear Pyro...so nice to be interacting with you again!
It is true that those who lived through the 50s and 60s in Cyprus are the most apprehensive...To be honest I have little idea what the young people of today think,if anything,about living together...I suspect most would would be cautious given what they've heard from their parents,grandparents etc....
It is a bit unfair to put the whole blame on Turkey however..I know that is not your position,Pyro,you have a good idea what went on during those terrible years...
I feel that what is most lacking is realism...People are either too immersed in the past or too preoccupied with the EU future and its effects on the possible solution...We are in a freezer situation,waiting for something to happen to force the hand of the players...If we want a solution we need to be more proactive,take the bull by the horne,and agree to a compromise solution that will leave fullscale reunification possibilities open...Both sides are too preoccupied with their own issues,and in an environment lacking empathy and compassion nothing seems to be going right...You know well that Cyprus problem is not an economic problem,Pyro...It is political,historical,and geographical...It will only be solved with goodwill and the right motivation...Both of which are lacking...Hence the stalemate...You might want to consider my post to Hermes above,and give me your thoughts,Pyro...As you know,I value and respect your opinions...Take care ,my brother...

[Hermes]

.The point now is,will we agree to make the status quo permanent and move on with our separate lives,or will we agree to a compromise solution that might give us an opportunity to reunite as one nation,one people down the track...The GCs cannot have it both ways,Hermes...You cannot say,no we will never agree to making the status quo permanent AND,no, we will never agree to a compromise solution...This has been the sticking point all along...When you finally realise you have to chose between one of these options,the problem will be solved...If you keep sitting on the fence,there is no problem to be solved...Have I made myself clear???

What makes you think GCs are not willing to accept a compromise solution? You think Christofias is being unreasonable? The poor bloke is bending over backwards in search of a compromise and has met a brick wall! At present there is no suggestion that Turkey is interested in anything other than a loose confederation with derogations, guarantees and legalised partition. What makes you think it is remotely in the interests of Greek Cypriots to accept a "compromise" on these terms?

Meanwhile, Eroglu has turned up in Brussels saying he wants a settlement which will become EU Primary Law arguing for permanent derogations from the acquis communautaire. Can you tell me what is our incentive to agree to permanent violations of our human rights and fundamental freedoms? This isn't serious negotiating. It is time-wasting.

In other words the Turkish "compromise" on offer is the Turkish army withdraws from Cyprus but it leaves everything as it is. In exchange for a sliver of territory we lose the bulk of our land and property while the island is still effectively divided, with a limited sovereignty, the threat of future Turkish intervention and with Greek Cypriots subject to a diminished status and loss of their EU rights and freedoms. We have got no further than this!

I'm baffled you think the GCs will accept such a "compromise"? What makes you think we'll agree to a legalised assisted death of the RoC and assign ourselves the status of second-class citizens in our own island? What do you take us for?

That is why the overwhelming majority of Greek Cypriots are content with keeping what we have: freedom in the south and sovereignty over the north. We don't have to agree to "go our separate ways". Why should we? We'll keep what we have, thank you. Until such time as it is no longer in Turkey's interest to occupy the north. However long it takes. Turkey keeps the occupation going but continues to pay a heavy economic and diplomatic price for it. We'll see to that.

I'm sorry if Turkey or the TCs find that inconvenient. But that is the overwhelming feeling in the free areas. If you think Turkey has approached the current talks in a spirit of compromise then we are worlds apart as to what a "compromise" actually involves.

[BirKibrisli]

What is "fair" for BirKibrisli is a return to the Ottoman era, where the population was divided into Christians and Muslims, with the Christians being second category people. For him democracy where the Cypriot people are equal without racist discriminations is not fair because in that way they can't enjoy the privileges they expect to have on our expense.

The TCs, with the backing of Turkey, started the conflict in Cyprus because democracy as it exists in all other successful democratic countries was not good enough for them, but they wanted something akin to apartheid instead. And then BirKibrisli blames us because they also suffered during the conflict they themselves initiated.

Let me ask you something Bir: When in 1958 you started massacring Greek Cypriots, burning down our homes and shops and demanded our annihilation from half of our island, didn't you expect any retaliation? You expected that you can kill GCs, burn down the homes and shops of GCs, impose on GCs your racist, undemocratic terms by collaborating with foreign Imperialists and that all these would have no negative effect on you?

What is right and just now is what has always been right and just: Freedom to Cyprus so that the Cypriot people can democratically decide the destiny of their own island, always with respect to the human rights of every Cypriot. You have always denied what is right and just and you are responsible for the problems that Cyprus has for centuries. You refused to us what is right and just during Ottoman rule, you refused to us what is right and just during British rule, you refused to us what is right and just after "independence" and today you continue to refuse what is right and just and what exists in every successful democracy. All these because you believe your ethnic minority of 18% is somehow special and you deserve to have privileges and gains on the expense of the human and democratic rights of the majority of the population.

When will you realise that your one-eyed,propagandist approach is not helping anything...
There is no point discussing anything with you...Your world is black and white,right and wrong,good and evil...You have decided that you are the victim,and the only solution is one which will give you everyting you want...reality is somewhat different...but that is no concern of yours...If people don't agree with you totally they must be wrong,and should be dismissed...Blame it on your mother,Piratis...She probably told you you are the most intelligent child on earth,and you could do nothing wrong...And being gullible you believed her...

[Viewpoint]

Hermes how comes you have so much inside information, when the talks are held in secrecy? are you part of the negotiations team? or are you just pissing in the wind again. If you are getting your information from newspapers can you back up your claims with links.

[BirKibrisli]

We know that unless a solution is found soon,not only the unique TC identity and character would be extinguished in the North, but the unique GC identity and independence in the South would be threatened

How would the GC identity be threatened?

We want a solution more than anyone else. Unfortunately what you demand is anything but a solution for us. What you want is just to solve your own problems which are a consequence of your illegal occupation of our lands, by some arrangement which would merely legalize your illegalities and crimes. Such thing might be a solution to you, but it is definitely not a solution to us. Solution for us means liberation of the 1/3rd of Cyprus which is currently under occupation, removal of the Turkish Army and Settlers, so our human rights will be restored and we can democratically rule our whole island.

You must have a mind,Piratis,think...Without a solution you will have millions of settlers permanently in the trnc...They will need water and electricity to survive into the future...And so will you...Before long you will depend on the trnc and Turkey for everything,including water,and clean air...air because these "new TCs" will have to be accommodated economically,and that means large scale industrialisation over the next 50 years...That mean air pollution,and great drainage of water and other natural resources...It won't be too long before the ROC becomes the BigTaiwan to trnc's Little Taiwan...Think man think...Not all battles are won by the gun...

[yialousa1971]

There is also another small thing. The Cyprus issue cannot and will not get solved with resolutions or legal battles. This was tried and we have failed miserably, in fact it has taken us back. It is a political issue and can only be solved politically.

We will solve it using you.