Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

VP and Bananiot,you are wasting your time and energy ,my friends....These people will never understand...They never had to sleep with a shotgun under their beds when they were children...They never knew the fear of death some of us was subjected to growing up in Cyprus....They were never humiliated in long queues at checkpoints when they wanted to visit their relatives in another part of the island...They never had loved ones disappear by busloads,from hospital beds,from their villages....I am not saying terrible things did not happen to individual GCs,but these posters here never had personal experience of it...You talk about mistrust and personal security,they talk about higher living standards,EU aquies,UN resolutions etc...They have never faced extinction as a community or as a nation...They have no idea where you are coming from....That is why there will never be a solution in our lifetime....I admire your tenacity,and wish I had your patience to deal with these blind people...As I used to say, "there is no one as blind as those who refuse to see"....

Bir my dear, regrettably have to say that it is pretty clear to me, that you in common with practically everyone of the Older Generations are a majority part of the problem.

This Shotgun under the Bed mentality, this over-weight and untrusting baggage allowance from the past being carried in to the present and future is no way forward.

Now, if you'll excuse me ... will go and see how to give the younger generation occupying the Buffer Zone of the Mind a little help.

Hi there,Bill...We "older generation" are where we are and feel like we do because of certain events that happened in our little country...While you safely grew up in a loving,stimulating,and supporting environment some of us went to bed each night not sure if we would see the light of day....You can try to dismiss it,minimise it,or make it irrelevant ,but this is etched in our people's collective consciousness...That is why there is so much bitterness and mistrust between our peoples...Peersonally,I have met GCs via this forum I would trust with my life...I consider them my lifelong brothers...But that does not change the fact that NOTHING has been done over so many wasted years to promote understanding,respect and trust in Cyprus...What the younger geneartion is doing is pointless ideological wanking...It will change nothing,will not contribute to a solution one iota...We must face our bloody past,come to terms with it,so we can move forward with confidence...I have admiration for those who are truly trying to promote mutual trust,understanding and respect...These copy cat occupiers are not amongst them...I still wish them and you good luck...You need it...

Pollox Bir... it's the ideas of the young that often change things.

Whilst you were firmly grasping your shot-gun, quite happy to take shots at anyone you didn't like the look of, some of us were on the streets of the Diaspora, some of us agitated and occupied and protested, had many a cold night on occupations ... and those were times when it weren't terribly bright to take a stand against established ways... so please pack it in with your ugly and very condescending drivel about the comforts of the Diasopra.

Further, it was the young who made significant contributions in ending the war in Vietnam, took to the streets to condemn Apartheid in SA, marched and organised in East London to push back the Fascist Nationalists and support to Minorities. The young have always shaped the future.

Yesterday's Counter-Culture so often becomes Today's Culture.

So please get with the times.

Bill,
When I was sleeping with a shotgun under my bed at age 7-8 you were probably not born yet...When you were born you probably slept with your favourite toy,safe in the knowledge that you lived in a civilised country where people's human rights were respected..So cut the crap...You can fool yourself that you can sweep the past under a carpet,and put your faith in those who have no idea what really happened in Cyprus...But it will not help us achieve the solution you say you desire...
Keep your head in the sand,mate...It is your head but GC state propaganda sand...I know you guys mean well,but you are totally deluded...You are only contributing to the problem...If you could only see that...

Never had a favourite toy mate, parents couldn't afford toys and cert couldn't afford to shove a shotgun under the bed , and believe you me '50s and '60s London wasn't a brill place to expect the rights of CYs or any other minority to have been respected. A lot of people on CF will know what is meant by that.

No mate, your views are the problem... you are the ones who don't like the idea of a few young CYs meeting up in the Buffer Zone and making new friendships and challenging the old ways, you Bir and your mate VP are the ones who would rather the young CYs didn't have the chance to shape the future, you are the ones who cling on to the past and want so desperately to take it in to the future and force it on the young cos the past is what defines so much about you, so much so that you ain't prepared to cut the young a little slack.

In short Bir and VP, and it is with regret that this is said but it is how you are coming across so it has to be said, you are the ones who would rather young CYs didn't trust the other CY and took shotguns to beds. You would both have the younger generation be an extension of the divided past.

My dear Bill...You are just showing how little you really know of the goings on in Cyprus back in the 50s and 60s...Do you think it was my choice to sleep with a shotgun??? do you think it was my father's choice to help organise the TC defences against a possible/most probable GC irregulars/paramilitaries assault...You are deluding yourself if you believe all our fears were imaginary...I know life in England was not rosy for the migrants those days,but at least you were not afraid of being slaughtered in your own homes by those who considered you the enemy within...When you appreciate this point we can talk further...It is totally pointless at the moment,like the efforts of those young people...
don't get me wrong,I am all for measures to improve mutual trust,understanding,respect etc...but without facing up to the past I b elieve it is impossible...We have two communities suffering post traumatic stress disorder,Bill...Singing songs around a campfire will not heal them...And you must know that...

[bill cobbett]

Bir my dear, thank you for acknowledging that life in the Diaspora in the early years was not a comfortable time. London has always been a challenging and sometimes risky place.

Still of the view that you should cut the youngsters some slack mate, give them a chance... they are determined to stay and getting more and more support and coverage with each passing day and really you should take heart, we should all take heart, that for the past what is it? 10 days now? There has been a small place in the centre of Nicosia which am now calling (and this is a phrase of my invention) United Free Cyprus, free of the "motherlands", free of differences... oh and free of the past...

[BirKibrisli]

Never had a favourite toy mate, parents couldn't afford toys and cert couldn't afford to shove a shotgun under the bed , and believe you me '50s and '60s London wasn't a brill place to expect the rights of CYs or any other minority to have been respected. A lot of people on CF will know what is meant by that.

No mate, your views are the problem... you are the ones who don't like the idea of a few young CYs meeting up in the Buffer Zone and making new friendships and challenging the old ways, you Bir and your mate VP are the ones who would rather the young CYs didn't have the chance to shape the future, you are the ones who cling on to the past and want so desperately to take it in to the future and force it on the young cos the past is what defines so much about you, so much so that you ain't prepared to cut the young a little slack.

In short Bir and VP, and it is with regret that this is said but it is how you are coming across so it has to be said, you are the ones who would rather young CYs didn't trust the other CY and took shotguns to beds. You would both have the younger generation be an extension of the divided past.

Bill C at his best!

It's amazing to me how old dinosaurs like Birkturk and Bananiot are still lumbering about the place bellowing and demanding that the present generation should live apart in order to pay for their crimes! The most bizarre thing of all is that Bananiot and Birkturk consider themselves progressives! When they are the biggest oldest farts on the block! Reactionaries to their bones! It's old fools like these that condemn Cyprus to partition by insisting that the present generation are spiteful, nationalistic and undeserving of a better future. When it's Bananas and BirkTurk who cannot let go of the past and cling to it like drowning men clinging to a piece of wood! I'd rather listen to the naive youth in the Buffer Zone than put up with the dreary old-bores Bananiot and Birkturk and their dull whinging drones that feed separation, bitterness and distrust.

Hermes,have I told you you are a prized idiot??? you have no idea where I stand on any issue ,do you? Where do I,or Bananiot for that matter, have ever argued that our peoples should live apart? We are trying hard to talk some sense into fools like you,so our country has a chance of reunification one day...We are two realists who know exactly how the present situation came about,and because we care for our country deeply we are struggling to overcome what we perceive are the obstacles on the path to reconsiliation..
We know Turkey,her army and settlers will not leave Cyprus unless a fair and equitable settlement is reached that will address peoples concerns regarding the past events...
We know that unless a solution is found soon,not only the unique TC identity and character would be extinguished in the North,but the unique GC identity and independence in the South would be threatened...We don't only see the past clearly,my idiotic friend,but we see the future as well...Cyprus will drown in the great Turkish sea unless we manage to overcome our stupid,obstinate refusal to acknowledge the mistakes of the past...It is fools like you who have no idea of what really went on in the past and what can go wrong in the future who are the danger to Cyprus' united future..But you are too stupid to realise it...

[bill cobbett]

Erm... any chance of a little civility towards one another at this late hour please.

If can add... We've had quite enough provocation and poor language for one night.

[Hermes]

Hermes,have I told you you are a prized idiot??? you have no idea where I stand on any issue ,do you? Where do I,or Bananiot for that matter, have ever argued that our peoples should live apart? We are trying hard to talk some sense into fools like you,so our country has a chance of reunification one day...We are two realists who know exactly how the present situation came about,and because we care for our country deeply we are struggling to overcome what we perceive are the obstacles on the path to reconsiliation..
We know Turkey,her army and settlers will not leave Cyprus unless a fair and equitable settlement is reached that will address peoples concerns regarding the past events...
We know that unless a solution is found soon,not only the unique TC identity and character would be extinguished in the North,but the unique GC identity and independence in the South would be threatened...We don't only see the past clearly,my idiotic friend,but we see the future as well...Cyprus will drown in the great Turkish sea unless we manage to overcome our stupid,obstinate refusal to acknowledge the mistakes of the past...It is fools like you who have no idea of what really went on in the past and what can go wrong in the future who are the danger to Cyprus' united future..But you are too stupid to realise it...

Bir,

Let us be serious for a moment. I'm sorry but we are not after a fair solution for the Turkish army. We are after a fair solution for Cypriots. In effect you see the Turkish occupation as a fait accompli and we should adjust to it. You tell us that there is no alternative but the reality of the Turkish occupation and we should cut a deal before it's too late. And what would such a deal consist of? Some kind of confederal nonsense of enforced separation, human rights abuses and a legalisation of Turkish crimes and plunder. And this is better than GCs currently have? In what way?

What you don't seem to understand is that we prefer what we have now than to give it up for some kind of dangerous half-baked confederal solution that would extend and legalize Turkey's involvement in our affairs. Ask yourself why is Turkey so resistant to the idea of a federal solution with EU guarantees for all Cypriot citizens? Because it would lose control and influence over the island. Do you believe that Turkey is negotiating in the interests of TCs? Or because of what happened in 1963? Of course not. Even you must see that Turkey is in these negotiations for itself and is trying to keep its presence on our island - by using the north's population as its proxies. A dangerous game considering our history.

Our resistance has everything to do with preventing any semblance of Turkish interference in our affairs. Instead of blaming the lack of progress on Turkish intransigence you blame us for wanting to control the island. That's true. But not so we dominate the TCs but so that the island is free of Turkey's malign influence. For our starting point is that Turkey is the problem in Cyprus. And until Turkey leaves us alone, there is little chance for peace between us.

[Pyrpolizer]

My dear Bill...You are just showing how little you really know of the goings on in Cyprus back in the 50s and 60s...Do you think it was my choice to sleep with a shotgun??? do you think it was my father's choice to help organise the TC defences against a possible/most probable GC irregulars/paramilitaries assault...You are deluding yourself if you believe all our fears were imaginary...I know life in England was not rosy for the migrants those days,but at least you were not afraid of being slaughtered in your own homes by those who considered you the enemy within...When you appreciate this point we can talk further...It is totally pointless at the moment,like the efforts of those young people...
don't get me wrong,I am all for measures to improve mutual trust,understanding,respect etc...but without facing up to the past I b elieve it is impossible...We have two communities suffering post traumatic stress disorder,Bill...Singing songs around a campfire will not heal them...And you must know that...

Hello dear Bir how are you my friend?
Well I happen to know your positions a long time ago. I am not saying you are wrong, but imo you are partly right. This fear that you talk about does exist among the older generations but not to the extend that you think. I would say it concentrates among specific groups as an example I could mention the village of the widows (those of Tochni). In general Kibrislis are very happy to meet Kypreoi, ask VP to confirm you if you like.
For some strange reason the Denktash regime kind of were constantly trying all these years to spread this fear among the whole Kibrisli population. It was considered part of their struggle, part of the way they could of succeed in what they wanted -partition i.e. In this respect it was rather comical to witnessed Kibrislis who were indifferent to the events of the past acting in a theatrical manner, pretending they are shit scared of the Kypreoi and each and everyone of them claiming they are from Tochni!! LOL.
Well after the opening of the gates things got clarified. Theatrical acts fell, and yes I insist that the majority of Kibrislis feel very happy meeting Kypreoi. There is just a slight element of mistrust in the air for BOTH sides-understandable after so many years of separation but that's all.

Although I wouldn't agree that a solution should concentrate primarily on those "fears" of the past from both sides, but in reality the so called BBF was actually primarily based on those! Yet we haven't moved one inch in achieving BBF, because of OTHER reasons. it is with Turkey we are dealing with here not with Kibrislis. The Kibrislis have no say at all, and Eroglu has just sealed everything for this and the next decade regarding their fate. So what comes next?? See my previous post

[Piratis]

What is "fair" for BirKibrisli is a return to the Ottoman era, where the population was divided into Christians and Muslims, with the Christians being second category people. For him democracy where the Cypriot people are equal without racist discriminations is not fair because in that way they can't enjoy the privileges they expect to have on our expense.

The TCs, with the backing of Turkey, started the conflict in Cyprus because democracy as it exists in all other successful democratic countries was not good enough for them, but they wanted something akin to apartheid instead. And then BirKibrisli blames us because they also suffered during the conflict they themselves initiated.

Let me ask you something Bir: When in 1958 you started massacring Greek Cypriots, burning down our homes and shops and demanded our annihilation from half of our island, didn't you expect any retaliation? You expected that you can kill GCs, burn down the homes and shops of GCs, impose on GCs your racist, undemocratic terms by collaborating with foreign Imperialists and that all these would have no negative effect on you?

What is right and just now is what has always been right and just: Freedom to Cyprus so that the Cypriot people can democratically decide the destiny of their own island, always with respect to the human rights of every Cypriot. You have always denied what is right and just and you are responsible for the problems that Cyprus has for centuries. You refused to us what is right and just during Ottoman rule, you refused to us what is right and just during British rule, you refused to us what is right and just after "independence" and today you continue to refuse what is right and just and what exists in every successful democracy. All these because you believe your ethnic minority of 18% is somehow special and you deserve to have privileges and gains on the expense of the human and democratic rights of the majority of the population.

[Piratis]

We know that unless a solution is found soon,not only the unique TC identity and character would be extinguished in the North, but the unique GC identity and independence in the South would be threatened

How would the GC identity be threatened?

We want a solution more than anyone else. Unfortunately what you demand is anything but a solution for us. What you want is just to solve your own problems which are a consequence of your illegal occupation of our lands, by some arrangement which would merely legalize your illegalities and crimes. Such thing might be a solution to you, but it is definitely not a solution to us. Solution for us means liberation of the 1/3rd of Cyprus which is currently under occupation, removal of the Turkish Army and Settlers, so our human rights will be restored and we can democratically rule our whole island.

[Viewpoint]

We know that unless a solution is found soon,not only the unique TC identity and character would be extinguished in the North, but the unique GC identity and independence in the South would be threatened

How would the GC identity be threatened?

We want a solution more than anyone else. Unfortunately what you demand is anything but a solution for us. What you want is just to solve your own problems which are a consequence of your illegal occupation of our lands, by some arrangement which would merely legalize your illegalities and crimes. Such thing might be a solution to you, but it is definitely not a solution to us. Solution for us means liberation of the 1/3rd of Cyprus which is currently under occupation, removal of the Turkish Army and Settlers, so our human rights will be restored and we can democratically rule our whole island.

In short revenge.

[Viewpoint]

Hermes,have I told you you are a prized idiot??? you have no idea where I stand on any issue ,do you? Where do I,or Bananiot for that matter, have ever argued that our peoples should live apart? We are trying hard to talk some sense into fools like you,so our country has a chance of reunification one day...We are two realists who know exactly how the present situation came about,and because we care for our country deeply we are struggling to overcome what we perceive are the obstacles on the path to reconsiliation..
We know Turkey,her army and settlers will not leave Cyprus unless a fair and equitable settlement is reached that will address peoples concerns regarding the past events...
We know that unless a solution is found soon,not only the unique TC identity and character would be extinguished in the North,but the unique GC identity and independence in the South would be threatened...We don't only see the past clearly,my idiotic friend,but we see the future as well...Cyprus will drown in the great Turkish sea unless we manage to overcome our stupid,obstinate refusal to acknowledge the mistakes of the past...It is fools like you who have no idea of what really went on in the past and what can go wrong in the future who are the danger to Cyprus' united future..But you are too stupid to realise it...

Bir,

Let us be serious for a moment. I'm sorry but we are not after a fair solution for the Turkish army. We are after a fair solution for Cypriots. In effect you see the Turkish occupation as a fait accompli and we should adjust to it. You tell us that there is no alternative but the reality of the Turkish occupation and we should cut a deal before it's too late. And what would such a deal consist of? Some kind of confederal nonsense of enforced separation, human rights abuses and a legalisation of Turkish crimes and plunder. And this is better than GCs currently have? In what way?

What you don't seem to understand is that we prefer what we have now than to give it up for some kind of dangerous half-baked confederal solution that would extend and legalize Turkey's involvement in our affairs. Ask yourself why is Turkey so resistant to the idea of a federal solution with EU guarantees for all Cypriot citizens? Because it would lose control and influence over the island. Do you believe that Turkey is negotiating in the interests of TCs? Or because of what happened in 1963? Of course not. Even you must see that Turkey is in these negotiations for itself and is trying to keep its presence on our island - by using the north's population as its proxies. A dangerous game considering our history.

Our resistance has everything to do with preventing any semblance of Turkish interference in our affairs. Instead of blaming the lack of progress on Turkish intransigence you blame us for wanting to control the island. That's true. But not so we dominate the TCs but so that the island is free of Turkey's malign influence. For our starting point is that Turkey is the problem in Cyprus. And until Turkey leaves us alone, there is little chance for peace between us.

You are so wrong and you do not know Birs viewpoint whatsoever...you really need to read properly and understand what people are saying to you.