Cyprus-Forum.com

[bill cobbett]

VP and Bananiot,you are wasting your time and energy ,my friends....These people will never understand...They never had to sleep with a shotgun under their beds when they were children...They never knew the fear of death some of us was subjected to growing up in Cyprus....They were never humiliated in long queues at checkpoints when they wanted to visit their relatives in another part of the island...They never had loved ones disappear by busloads,from hospital beds,from their villages....I am not saying terrible things did not happen to individual GCs,but these posters here never had personal experience of it...You talk about mistrust and personal security,they talk about higher living standards,EU aquies,UN resolutions etc...They have never faced extinction as a community or as a nation...They have no idea where you are coming from....That is why there will never be a solution in our lifetime....I admire your tenacity,and wish I had your patience to deal with these blind people...As I used to say, "there is no one as blind as those who refuse to see"....

Bir my dear, regrettably have to say that it is pretty clear to me, that you in common with practically everyone of the Older Generations are a majority part of the problem.

This Shotgun under the Bed mentality, this over-weight and untrusting baggage allowance from the past being carried in to the present and future is no way forward.

Now, if you'll excuse me ... will go and see how to give the younger generation occupying the Buffer Zone of the Mind a little help.

Hi there,Bill...We "older generation" are where we are and feel like we do because of certain events that happened in our little country...While you safely grew up in a loving,stimulating,and supporting environment some of us went to bed each night not sure if we would see the light of day....You can try to dismiss it,minimise it,or make it irrelevant ,but this is etched in our people's collective consciousness...That is why there is so much bitterness and mistrust between our peoples...Peersonally,I have met GCs via this forum I would trust with my life...I consider them my lifelong brothers...But that does not change the fact that NOTHING has been done over so many wasted years to promote understanding,respect and trust in Cyprus...What the younger geneartion is doing is pointless ideological wanking...It will change nothing,will not contribute to a solution one iota...We must face our bloody past,come to terms with it,so we can move forward with confidence...I have admiration for those who are truly trying to promote mutual trust,understanding and respect...These copy cat occupiers are not amongst them...I still wish them and you good luck...You need it...

Pollox Bir... it's the ideas of the young that often change things.

Whilst you were firmly grasping your shot-gun, quite happy to take shots at anyone you didn't like the look of, some of us were on the streets of the Diaspora, some of us agitated and occupied and protested, had many a cold night on occupations ... and those were times when it weren't terribly bright to take a stand against established ways... so please pack it in with your ugly and very condescending drivel about the comforts of the Diasopra.

Further, it was the young who made significant contributions in ending the war in Vietnam, took to the streets to condemn Apartheid in SA, marched and organised in East London to push back the Fascist Nationalists and support to Minorities. The young have always shaped the future.

Yesterday's Counter-Culture so often becomes Today's Culture.

So please get with the times.

Bill,
When I was sleeping with a shotgun under my bed at age 7-8 you were probably not born yet...When you were born you probably slept with your favourite toy,safe in the knowledge that you lived in a civilised country where people's human rights were respected..So cut the crap...You can fool yourself that you can sweep the past under a carpet,and put your faith in those who have no idea what really happened in Cyprus...But it will not help us achieve the solution you say you desire...
Keep your head in the sand,mate...It is your head but GC state propaganda sand...I know you guys mean well,but you are totally deluded...You are only contributing to the problem...If you could only see that...

Never had a favourite toy mate, parents couldn't afford toys and cert couldn't afford to shove a shotgun under the bed , and believe you me '50s and '60s London wasn't a brill place to expect the rights of CYs or any other minority to have been respected. A lot of people on CF will know what is meant by that.

No mate, your views are the problem... you are the ones who don't like the idea of a few young CYs meeting up in the Buffer Zone and making new friendships and challenging the old ways, you Bir and your mate VP are the ones who would rather the young CYs didn't have the chance to shape the future, you are the ones who cling on to the past and want so desperately to take it in to the future and force it on the young cos the past is what defines so much about you, so much so that you ain't prepared to cut the young a little slack.

In short Bir and VP, and it is with regret that this is said but it is how you are coming across so it has to be said, you are the ones who would rather young CYs didn't trust the other CY and took shotguns to beds. You would both have the younger generation be an extension of the divided past.

[Hermes]

Never had a favourite toy mate, parents couldn't afford toys and cert couldn't afford to shove a shotgun under the bed , and believe you me '50s and '60s London wasn't a brill place to expect the rights of CYs or any other minority to have been respected. A lot of people on CF will know what is meant by that.

No mate, your views are the problem... you are the ones who don't like the idea of a few young CYs meeting up in the Buffer Zone and making new friendships and challenging the old ways, you Bir and your mate VP are the ones who would rather the young CYs didn't have the chance to shape the future, you are the ones who cling on to the past and want so desperately to take it in to the future and force it on the young cos the past is what defines so much about you, so much so that you ain't prepared to cut the young a little slack.

In short Bir and VP, and it is with regret that this is said but it is how you are coming across so it has to be said, you are the ones who would rather young CYs didn't trust the other CY and took shotguns to beds. You would both have the younger generation be an extension of the divided past.

Bill C at his best!

It's amazing to me how old dinosaurs like Birkturk and Bananiot are still lumbering about the place bellowing and demanding that the present generation should live apart in order to pay for their crimes! The most bizarre thing of all is that Bananiot and Birkturk consider themselves progressives! When they are the biggest oldest farts on the block! Reactionaries to their bones! It's old fools like these that condemn Cyprus to partition by insisting that the present generation are spiteful, nationalistic and undeserving of a better future. When it's Bananas and BirkTurk who cannot let go of the past and cling to it like drowning men clinging to a piece of wood! I'd rather listen to the naive youth in the Buffer Zone than put up with the dreary old-bores Bananiot and Birkturk and their dull whinging drones that feed separation, bitterness and distrust.

[Viewpoint]

Bill honestly have you ever interacted with the youth of both sides....the majority not all as the few at the border prove there is some that are doing something towards their beliefs but the majority havent got a clue and they dont really understand care about unification, they are happy driving daddies car, going to private schools and having the best of everthing...they have nothing to fight for, why rock the boat.....if you were right then the border would have been packed with youth....al i saw was a few die hard hippies joking around.

[Viewpoint]

Look you as a GC always will take things out of context twist them around to suit your warped mentality, the first is a direct response to Nikitas who claims BBF is partition, the second is very clear, arent we sharing right now? its you thats wants the whole island not me. Now do you understand? Ah these simpletons.

You're a strange man. You mean you don't want one state, one country, and a strong federal structure? Why on earth are you trying to convince everyone you want a solution then? You want a separate state! And then you blame the GCs for not wanting a solution! You're nothing but a bloody time-waster!

Hermes you obviously do not know me or what I support, I am a partionist as I feel we will never find a solution thats why I believe land return for recognition is the best way forward as you and people like you add to this the lapse of time proves me right. Now that does not mean I am closed to being persuaded otherwise thats why for days I have been asking GCs to try and convince TCs that union with GC in the EU is far more beneficial than continuing with Turkey or supporting agreed partion. Unfortunately not one concrete idea has been put forward that will win over TCs, that proves that all this EU hype is just another way of getting full control of the island and reducing TCs to minority status without any guarantees or security

As for your concept of sharing! That's a highly distorted and psychopathic concept of sharing you have there. Since when did stealing someone's land and property become sharing? Are you mad or just pretending to be?

You may not like it but the current situation is also a form of sharing, you need to understand this we to lost land and our homes the balance may not be equal but this is the results of both sides wrongs. So throwing around insults only shows your own intolerance and misunderstanding of views outside of your own.

[aikhme]

Another logical fallacy ...

Bananiot has a steady and unwavering approach to the Cyprus issue: Turkey's intransigence is a foregone conclusion to which all others must adapt.

Now, what do we have, let us see: Intervention by Turkey in 1974 that no international body considers to be an invasion since Turkey, along with Greece and Britain, were granted this right in order to restore the London - Zurich agreements, which we signed while proclaiming "nenikikamen" - "we have won". Turkey comes in, occupies one third of the island, seeks and gets relocation of people, thousands become refugees and to add insult to injury, encourages thousands of Anatolian settlers to move to the island and practically change its demographic character. The worse, once order is restored, the Turkish army remains and effectively controls the north.

One would think that this is a clear case of human rights seriously violated by a bully of a country. Yet, all the international institutions, the UN, the EU and all the not so important ones, are calling the two sides, since day one, to engage in talks, in order to find a solution. Isn't our case a clear cut one, a case of intervention and occupation? Why do they ask us to seek a compromise solution through talks? Have the international institutions that are here to uphold law and order, completely lost the plot here? Are they not equating the victim with the aggressor, in our case?

Could it be that they know something we do not know, or something our apprentice politicians hide from us? Do we shoulder part of the blame for our predicament? Can somebody speak to us frankly about what we got ourselves into? Do we need anyone to tell us the obvious? Things can never become as they were before June 20 1974, let alone become better (unitary state, one man - one vote) unless of course we can militarily defeat Turkey in which case, what is there, one might ask, to stop us from realising our national aspirations?

lol!!!

Really Bananiot??? You really do need to seek help Bananiot. How can you say the no one recognises the invasion of 1974 Bananiot? I suppose UN Resolutions are a figment of our imaginations and only you are able to come here and state the most absurd nonsense that no international body in the world considers Turkey's intervention an invasion and occupation. Are all the UN Resolutions just pie in the sky? And what about Protocol 10 of the EU which categorically mentions Turkey's invasion and occupation thus forcing the temporary suspension of the EU Acuis?

Bananiot, stop insulting our intelligence. Article 11 of the Treaty of Guarantee explicitly requires that all parties guarantee the independence, territorial integrity and security of Cyprus. Is that what Turkey is doing Bananiot? Is it upholding the Treaty by respecting our independence, territorial integrity and security? Turkey lost all legitimacy many years ago. If it did in fact restore the 1959 Zurich Agreements, then you may have a point, and Turkey's actions may hold solid legal grounding in accordance with the agreed Treaty of Guarantee, but Turkey has not done so.

A sane person can easily appreciate these dilemmas which have been forced onto our backs by our "patriots" and their dubious agendas. Nikitas, who is a Greek Cypriot writes about Turkey's intransigence and he is not the only one. Just about everybody in our community talk constantly about the Turkish intransigence as the main culprit for the stalemate. Fine, we have identified the culprit, where does this take us? Have we managed to convince those that can help us that our woes are a direct result of the Turkish intransigence, and if not, why not? Just consider this: Even during the Presidency of Papadopoulos, the Security Council of the UN called upon Turkey "to continue supporting the peace efforts" of the two communities. Papadopoulos not only did not complain but endorsed the document with his signature! This shows the extend of our problem which in a nutshell means that the international institutions believe that we shoulder at least part of the blame for the current situation. Hence they call for talks to find a solution, an agreed solution which of course must be a compromise solution, if it is to be agreed by both sides. If not, nobody will blame Turkey and of the next step will be some type of recognition for the pseudostate which will then lose its pseudo prefix and will leave us with nothing.

These are the thoughts that bother me and when I ask "what is the alternative?" and all I get is "nothing" I become more convince that Nikitas, B25, Aikmeh and a few others we all can identify, are not really interested in the good of this place.

You know very well that with any issue there is always a wide spectrum of ideas, and that includes the Cyprus Problem. At one end you will find the nationalists, uncompromising and with an "all or nothing" approach. At the other end you will find the surrendered defeatists ready to give their soul. Both are extremists. They may sit at opposite ends of the spectrum, but both are equally dangerous and harmful to their country and their popularity as a result is marginalised at best. And you Bananiot will be proclaiming victory when you let Turkey take it all.

As for your partition fears, even Makarios Droushiotis explicitly stated that recognition is out of the question, and that both sides will lose if a solution is not found, but more so the TCs. The GCs will survive but the TCs will not over the longer term.

[aikhme]

So aike does that mean the EU will give you the north back? How long has it been 7 years and zilch not one inch of land has been returned not one new generation TC has gone back and not one Turkish soldiers has departed....now whos barking up the wrong tree?

You better believe it VP.

If this situation continues, along will come the day when you will lose it all, with the assistance of the EU, and the UN and perhaps even other newly acquired and old allies.

A solution is in your interest far more than it is ours. You have an excellent opportunity, since our side has made the biggest compromise of all by endorsing in principle a BBF solution. Even 4:2 rotating presidencies have been mentioned, which should only be a 4:1 rotating presidency. All these compromises from our side and nothing to show from yours. Yes VP, we can afford to wait another 37 years, but you can't because in 37 years, the TC community will become nothing, and the "TRNC" will still be unrecognised as it has always been.

Our side could even accept a Treaty of Guarantee from the EU, NATO, or other international force, which could in part include troops from Turkey, Greece, and Britain and maybe others as well, but it will never accept a Treaty of Guarantee that gives any nation the unilateral right to intervene in Cyprus as Turkey wants.

[B25]

So aike does that mean the EU will give you the north back? How long has it been 7 years and zilch not one inch of land has been returned not one new generation TC has gone back and not one Turkish soldiers has departed....now whos barking up the wrong tree?

You better believe it VP.

If this situation continues, along will come the day when you will lose it all, with the assistance of the EU, and the UN and perhaps even other newly acquired and old allies.

A solution is in your interest far more than it is ours. You have an excellent opportunity, since our side has made the biggest compromise of all by endorsing in principle a BBF solution. Even 4:2 rotating presidencies have been mentioned, which should only be a 4:1 rotating presidency. All these compromises from our side and nothing to show from yours. Yes VP, we can afford to wait another 37 years, but you can't because in 37 years, the TC community will become nothing, and the "TRNC" will still be unrecognised as it has always been.

Our side could even accept a Treaty of Guarantee from the EU, NATO, or other international force, which could in part include troops from Turkey, Greece, and Britain and maybe others as well, but it will never accept a Treaty of Guarantee that gives any nation the unilateral right to intervene in Cyprus as Turkey wants.

Aike, respect, but Cyprus does not want nor need ANY treaty of Guarantee. We had this and look what happened. We are a free sovereign country and we don't need Guarantees from any one. As an EU member state and an UN member our allies should ensure our safety, not have Intervention rights, there is a difference.

All the same na ' sai Kala.

[Cap]

My oh my...Seems like Banners and VP have been mauled by pitbulls.
Not enough fancy words in their vocab to climb outta this hole.

[Bananiot]

Aihkhme, you do know the difference between "intervention" and "invasion" I presume. If not, work it out and we can talk. Here is a clue for you: The UN Resolutions were unanimously adopted, that is, Turkey voted for them too.

[aikhme]

Interventionism Bananiot can denote legality by its very nature, and invasion does not. Turkey's invasion and occupation, which it calls an "intervention" could only have a legal footing if it abides by the Treaty of Guarantee signed in 1959, and acted in a manner that satisfies all its articles, including Article 11 which requires the Guarantor Powers to safeguard the island's independence, territorial integrity and security.

Furthermore, UN Resolution 550, which reaffirmed UN Resolutions 365, 367, 541 and 544 was not unanimous. Out of the 15 members of the UN Security Council, 13 supported the Resolution, one was against (Pakistan) and the US Abstained. Turkey did not vote as it was not one of the non permanent members of the Security Council, and is if it would have supported any UN Resolution if it was, including the UN Resolution on the UDI of the "TRNC". Bananiot, you are definitely losing it.