Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

Another logical fallacy ...

Bananiot has a steady and unwavering approach to the Cyprus issue: Turkey's intransigence is a foregone conclusion to which all others must adapt.

Now, what do we have, let us see: Intervention by Turkey in 1974 that no international body considers to be an invasion since Turkey, along with Greece and Britain, were granted this right in order to restore the London - Zurich agreements, which we signed while proclaiming "nenikikamen" - "we have won". Turkey comes in, occupies one third of the island, seeks and gets relocation of people, thousands become refugees and to add insult to injury, encourages thousands of Anatolian settlers to move to the island and practically change its demographic character. The worse, once order is restored, the Turkish army remains and effectively controls the north.

One would think that this is a clear case of human rights seriously violated by a bully of a country. Yet, all the international institutions, the UN, the EU and all the not so important ones, are calling the two sides, since day one, to engage in talks, in order to find a solution. Isn't our case a clear cut one, a case of intervention and occupation? Why do they ask us to seek a compromise solution through talks? Have the international institutions that are here to uphold law and order, completely lost the plot here? Are they not equating the victim with the aggressor, in our case?

Could it be that they know something we do not know, or something our apprentice politicians hide from us? Do we shoulder part of the blame for our predicament? Can somebody speak to us frankly about what we got ourselves into? Do we need anyone to tell us the obvious? Things can never become as they were before June 20 1974, let alone become better (unitary state, one man - one vote) unless of course we can militarily defeat Turkey in which case, what is there, one might ask, to stop us from realising our national aspirations?

A sane person can easily appreciate these dilemmas which have been forced onto our backs by our "patriots" and their dubious agendas. Nikitas, who is a Greek Cypriot writes about Turkey's intransigence and he is not the only one. Just about everybody in our community talk constantly about the Turkish intransigence as the main culprit for the stalemate. Fine, we have identified the culprit, where does this take us? Have we managed to convince those that can help us that our woes are a direct result of the Turkish intransigence, and if not, why not? Just consider this: Even during the Presidency of Papadopoulos, the Security Council of the UN called upon Turkey "to continue supporting the peace efforts" of the two communities. Papadopoulos not only did not complain but endorsed the document with his signature! This shows the extend of our problem which in a nutshell means that the international institutions believe that we shoulder at least part of the blame for the current situation. Hence they call for talks to find a solution, an agreed solution which of course must be a compromise solution, if it is to be agreed by both sides. If not, nobody will blame Turkey and of the next step will be some type of recognition for the pseudostate which will then lose its pseudo prefix and will leave us with nothing.

These are the thoughts that bother me and when I ask "what is the alternative?" and all I get is "nothing" I become more convince that Nikitas, B25, Aikmeh and a few others we all can identify, are not really interested in the good of this place.

[Viewpoint]

So I am still waiting to be persuaded to demand union with GCs in the EU and tell Turkey to leave us alone. You GCs talk out of your arses all hot air.

Well if you feel the "GCs talk out of your arses all hot air" ... why don't you step outside your front door and ask your fellow CYs living directly under the "Orrible Occupation why they are telling Turkey to "Go Asihktir", demanding Re-Unification, demanding Regime Change and who have had enough of the False Promises from Turkey and its Settler Dominated Regime ... perhaps they could convince you.

Where are they now? and why should they provide concrete reasons why we need to unite with the GCs?

viewpoint, often i have to wonder where you place Humanity on the scale of identities you sustain. who are "those" GCs you are so willy nillie about?

...look around you, and welcome back; if i am a GC (or not a TC), am i to be hated (mistrusted)?

...and those in Occupy, are they Traitors, because they choose the land they love above being "Greek" or "Turk".

...what is Bicommunal? it is not something cut in two by definition, Bizonal is the same; i know you are smart enough to understand that,
but have you the courage to stand up for Universal Values above your singular national values, grateful that their Principals flung us into this Age where our hatred can be focused not against each other, but against the real enemies that haunt us, like Ignorance, and Disease. I challenge you to stand up for one State, because it is the only way Cypriots can defend their Sovereign Rights amongst the interlocutors. Demand a Government of Cyprus which defends us its Citizens as Individuals without discrimination. Challenge the "Greeks" to form their own National Assembly, toward this end, where within a Territorial Jurisdiction they can provide services as a Majority, like a Turkish constituent, its equal, freeing our Federal Government from this bias. challenge the Maronites, and Armenians too, they should be as proud as the Turks are now for their Heritance, they should be able to represent themselves toward sustaining their Identity as a daily life, so that within this Union, the Rights of Persons can be demonstrated by us, as this island's dwellers toward each other. Bizonal means many and one, it does not mean 'two'. Bicommunal in essence has nothing to do with Turk/Greek, it has to do with our Identity as Persons, and as Individuals.

Cyprus Free: (at least) three Governing bodies; one Capital

...you really should consider reading my manifesto.

cheers!

Good speach would go down well at a rally but what the bottom line is you are advocating GC rule and TCs follow.

[Viewpoint]

Bananiot has a steady and unwavering approach to the Cyprus issue: Turkey's intransigence is a foregone conclusion to which all others must adapt.

VP says that the TCs see no reason to UNITE with the GCs. Who has ever asked them to do that since 1977 when the BBF principle was co signed? There is not a single political party or public figure on the GC side asking for such a UNIFICATION.

BBF is partition put in polite terms. BIZONAL ie geographically separate, BICOMMUNAL, ie ethnically separate, FEDERATION, and that last bit is what the argument is really about even if VP pretends not to understand it. Essentially it is the GCs who do not want to unite with Turkey and the Federation thing is one way to prevent this unification.

Two out of three is not bad VP. So do not whinge.

One country one identity strong federal structure far from partition.

[boulio]

can you show me were the turks have every proposed a srong federal structure because this is were the problem lies.Meaning of terms:

federalism=conferedacy (for the turks)
federalism=federalism(for the rest of the world)

[BirKibrisli]

These people will never understand...They never had to sleep with a shotgun under their beds when they were children...(

Not just shotguns, but you told us you also slept with bombs and allsorts of ammunition courtesy of your father's TMT activities. Sorry you had such a twisetd upbringing, but it explains your attempts to distort Cyprus' history.

You know very well that originally the TMT was there to protect the innocent TCs from the EOKA hordes...Those weapons were badly needed for our protection,and they did the job...Father and his men never had to fire a shot at anyone during those heady years of 1957-58....No amount of denial on your part will change that part of our history,Oracle....Good try...

The EOKA "hordes" were a few men who fought the Imperialists for Cyprus' freedom - so I can well understand Turkish expansionists would rush in to grab what they could whilst the natives were busy defending Cyprus. As far as; your father 'never had to fire a shot' - I'm afraid we only have your word for it, since fire and shoot, bomb and kill they did! And if I used Bananiot's and your logic, then you are as guilty as hell and you as his descendant, plus all your people should be punished forevermore for your father's TMT involvement.



The Turkish Terrorist Organisation T.M.T.

The first inter-communal violence in the recent history of Cyprus was, in fact, caused by T.M.T. This was the result of a policy of hate cultivated by the Turkish Cypriot leadership and it aimed at persuading world public opinion that Turkish Cypriots could not co-exist with Greek Cypriots and, therefore, partition in one form or another was necessary. On 12 June 1958 eight innocent and unarmed Greek Cypriot civilians from Kondemenos village were murdered by T.M.T. terrorists near the Turkish populated village of Geunyeli. That was the first incident involving human lives. According to the findings of the "Commission of Inquiry into the Incidents at Geunyeli" (appointed by the British colonial administration), which were also included in the official report of Sir Paget Bourke, Chief Justice of Cyprus, "for some days prior to 12 June, in fact from 7 June, inter-communal feeling was running very high in the island and there had been many instances of attacks by Turks, particularly in Nicosia, upon members of the Greek community and upon Greek property". There is no reference to attacks on Turkish Cypriots as there were no such attacks. The T.M.T. terrorists attacked again in 1963. This is evidenced by the fact that they were found in possession of vast quantities of arms. Moreover, Turkish intentions were revealed in the "Deniz" incident when the Turkish ship full of arms was sent to Cyprus as early as 1959, after the conclusion of the Agreement on Cyprus.

I know what the TMT was originally and I know its patched history very well,Oracle...
I don't need lessons from you...The fact that 95% of TCs still consider the TMT as their heroic saviours ought to tell you a thing or two...

BTW,why do you keep changing your "Nick" here...? You are unique and cannot possibly hide yourself...I thought it was a woman's prerogative to change her mind often,but changing Nicks!!!!! ...I only returned because you and GR have returned...Without you two to provide constant amusement this forum would be insupportable...

[Hermes]

The fact that 95% of TCs still consider the TMT as their heroic saviours ought to tell you a thing or two...

If this is true then all it tells us is how stupid and deluded the TCs are and that it was this imbecility and pitiful self-delusion that led to their extinction from the island at Turkey's hands.

Is this the lies, distortions and historical delusions you have passed on to today's T/Cs? Is this your legacy? And you wonder why nobody will lift a finger to help you? God give me strength!

[BirKibrisli]

VP and Bananiot,you are wasting your time and energy ,my friends....These people will never understand...They never had to sleep with a shotgun under their beds when they were children...They never knew the fear of death some of us was subjected to growing up in Cyprus....They were never humiliated in long queues at checkpoints when they wanted to visit their relatives in another part of the island...They never had loved ones disappear by busloads,from hospital beds,from their villages....I am not saying terrible things did not happen to individual GCs,but these posters here never had personal experience of it...You talk about mistrust and personal security,they talk about higher living standards,EU aquies,UN resolutions etc...They have never faced extinction as a community or as a nation...They have no idea where you are coming from....That is why there will never be a solution in our lifetime....I admire your tenacity,and wish I had your patience to deal with these blind people...As I used to say, "there is no one as blind as those who refuse to see"....

Bir my dear, regrettably have to say that it is pretty clear to me, that you in common with practically everyone of the Older Generations are a majority part of the problem.

This Shotgun under the Bed mentality, this over-weight and untrusting baggage allowance from the past being carried in to the present and future is no way forward.

Now, if you'll excuse me ... will go and see how to give the younger generation occupying the Buffer Zone of the Mind a little help.

Hi there,Bill...We "older generation" are where we are and feel like we do because of certain events that happened in our little country...While you safely grew up in a loving,stimulating,and supporting environment some of us went to bed each night not sure if we would see the light of day....You can try to dismiss it,minimise it,or make it irrelevant ,but this is etched in our people's collective consciousness...That is why there is so much bitterness and mistrust between our peoples...Peersonally,I have met GCs via this forum I would trust with my life...I consider them my lifelong brothers...But that does not change the fact that NOTHING has been done over so many wasted years to promote understanding,respect and trust in Cyprus...What the younger geneartion is doing is pointless ideological wanking...It will change nothing,will not contribute to a solution one iota...We must face our bloody past,come to terms with it,so we can move forward with confidence...I have admiration for those who are truly trying to promote mutual trust,understanding and respect...These copy cat occupiers are not amongst them...I still wish them and you good luck...You need it...

[bill cobbett]

VP and Bananiot,you are wasting your time and energy ,my friends....These people will never understand...They never had to sleep with a shotgun under their beds when they were children...They never knew the fear of death some of us was subjected to growing up in Cyprus....They were never humiliated in long queues at checkpoints when they wanted to visit their relatives in another part of the island...They never had loved ones disappear by busloads,from hospital beds,from their villages....I am not saying terrible things did not happen to individual GCs,but these posters here never had personal experience of it...You talk about mistrust and personal security,they talk about higher living standards,EU aquies,UN resolutions etc...They have never faced extinction as a community or as a nation...They have no idea where you are coming from....That is why there will never be a solution in our lifetime....I admire your tenacity,and wish I had your patience to deal with these blind people...As I used to say, "there is no one as blind as those who refuse to see"....

Bir my dear, regrettably have to say that it is pretty clear to me, that you in common with practically everyone of the Older Generations are a majority part of the problem.

This Shotgun under the Bed mentality, this over-weight and untrusting baggage allowance from the past being carried in to the present and future is no way forward.

Now, if you'll excuse me ... will go and see how to give the younger generation occupying the Buffer Zone of the Mind a little help.

Hi there,Bill...We "older generation" are where we are and feel like we do because of certain events that happened in our little country...While you safely grew up in a loving,stimulating,and supporting environment some of us went to bed each night not sure if we would see the light of day....You can try to dismiss it,minimise it,or make it irrelevant ,but this is etched in our people's collective consciousness...That is why there is so much bitterness and mistrust between our peoples...Peersonally,I have met GCs via this forum I would trust with my life...I consider them my lifelong brothers...But that does not change the fact that NOTHING has been done over so many wasted years to promote understanding,respect and trust in Cyprus...What the younger geneartion is doing is pointless ideological wanking...It will change nothing,will not contribute to a solution one iota...We must face our bloody past,come to terms with it,so we can move forward with confidence...I have admiration for those who are truly trying to promote mutual trust,understanding and respect...These copy cat occupiers are not amongst them...I still wish them and you good luck...You need it...

Pollox Bir... it's the ideas of the young that often change things.

Whilst you were firmly grasping your shot-gun, quite happy to take shots at anyone you didn't like the look of, some of us were on the streets of the Diaspora, some of us agitated and occupied and protested, had many a cold night on occupations ... and those were times when it weren't terribly bright to take a stand against established ways... so please pack it in with your ugly and very condescending drivel about the comforts of the Diasopra.

Further, it was the young who made significant contributions in ending the war in Vietnam, took to the streets to condemn Apartheid in SA, marched and organised in East London to push back the Fascist Nationalists and support to Minorities. The young have always shaped the future.

Yesterday's Counter-Culture so often becomes Today's Culture.

So please get with the times.

[Viewpoint]

Bir these morons understand exactly what you are saying but like their forefathers they are turning a blind eye to your calls for actions that help heal the past and build trust. No GC has actually convinced anyone that the GC/EU option is better for TCs than moving forward with Turkey...how ironic they cant even promote what they say will be all thats needed for a solution.

[Viewpoint]

VP and Bananiot,you are wasting your time and energy ,my friends....These people will never understand...They never had to sleep with a shotgun under their beds when they were children...They never knew the fear of death some of us was subjected to growing up in Cyprus....They were never humiliated in long queues at checkpoints when they wanted to visit their relatives in another part of the island...They never had loved ones disappear by busloads,from hospital beds,from their villages....I am not saying terrible things did not happen to individual GCs,but these posters here never had personal experience of it...You talk about mistrust and personal security,they talk about higher living standards,EU aquies,UN resolutions etc...They have never faced extinction as a community or as a nation...They have no idea where you are coming from....That is why there will never be a solution in our lifetime....I admire your tenacity,and wish I had your patience to deal with these blind people...As I used to say, "there is no one as blind as those who refuse to see"....

Bir my dear, regrettably have to say that it is pretty clear to me, that you in common with practically everyone of the Older Generations are a majority part of the problem.

This Shotgun under the Bed mentality, this over-weight and untrusting baggage allowance from the past being carried in to the present and future is no way forward.

Now, if you'll excuse me ... will go and see how to give the younger generation occupying the Buffer Zone of the Mind a little help.

Hi there,Bill...We "older generation" are where we are and feel like we do because of certain events that happened in our little country...While you safely grew up in a loving,stimulating,and supporting environment some of us went to bed each night not sure if we would see the light of day....You can try to dismiss it,minimise it,or make it irrelevant ,but this is etched in our people's collective consciousness...That is why there is so much bitterness and mistrust between our peoples...Peersonally,I have met GCs via this forum I would trust with my life...I consider them my lifelong brothers...But that does not change the fact that NOTHING has been done over so many wasted years to promote understanding,respect and trust in Cyprus...What the younger geneartion is doing is pointless ideological wanking...It will change nothing,will not contribute to a solution one iota...We must face our bloody past,come to terms with it,so we can move forward with confidence...I have admiration for those who are truly trying to promote mutual trust,understanding and respect...These copy cat occupiers are not amongst them...I still wish them and you good luck...You need it...

Pollox Bir... it's the ideas of the young that often change things.

Whilst you were firmly grasping your shot-gun, quite happy to take shots at anyone you didn't like the look of, some of us were on the streets of the Diaspora, some of us agitated and occupied and protested, had many a cold night on occupations ... and those were times when it weren't terribly bright to take a stand against established ways... so please pack it in with your ugly and very condescending drivel about the comforts of the Diasopra.

Further, it was the young who made significant contributions in ending the war in Vietnam, took to the streets to condemn Apartheid in SA, marched and organised in East London to push back the Fascist Nationalists and support to Minorities. The young have always shaped the future.

Yesterday's Counter-Culture so often becomes Today's Culture.

So please get with the times.

Obviously you have had no direct contact with the youth of both sides, they are mainly air heads living off daddies money.