Cyprus-Forum.com

[Hermes]

Isnt a derogation a change in EU rules? isnt a task force a guarantee? arent the remove of alochol and no weapons policy sprecautions?

In short we have agreed that to find a solution we have to have compromise and this involves derogation's and guarantees, for these over time these can become redundant if both sides feel they have fulfilled their mission.

Yes. Compromise is key. A transitionary task force such as the OSCE to replace the Turkish army in order to enforce a solution. It will replace the "treaty of guarantee" which everyone sees as discredited. This is what Turkey has yet to accept.

As for derogations, they cannot be permanent, as the EU has made clear. But limited and temporary. Otherwise they will face challenge in EU courts. That's why it's best to have as few as possible. As these will revolve around property the best way is to ensure that as much property and territory is returned to legal owners. That way derogations won't fuel resentment.

This is what Eroglu has apparently yet to accept as he is still demanding permanent derogations on fundamental freedoms and is still refusing to allow significant numbers of GCs to return to their homes under GC administration. For Eroglu, I of course mean Turkey.

[Viewpoint]

Isnt a derogation a change in EU rules? isnt a task force a guarantee? arent the remove of alochol and no weapons policy sprecautions?

In short we have agreed that to find a solution we have to have compromise and this involves derogation's and guarantees, for these over time these can become redundant if both sides feel they have fulfilled their mission.

Yes. Compromise is key. A transitionary task force such as the OSCE to replace the Turkish army in order to enforce a solution. It will replace the "treaty of guarantee" which everyone sees as discredited. This is what Turkey has yet to accept.

As for derogations, they cannot be permanent, as the EU has made clear. But limited and temporary. Otherwise they will face challenge in EU courts. That's why it's best to have as few as possible. As these will revolve around property the best way is to ensure that as much property and territory is returned to legal owners. That way derogations won't fuel resentment.

This is what Eroglu has apparently yet to accept as he is still demanding permanent derogations on fundamental freedoms and is still refusing to allow significant numbers of GCs to return to their homes under GC administration. For Eroglu, I of course mean Turkey.

The majority of Tcs do not have a problem with the land return issue and are prepared to become refugees for the 3rd or 4th time for a solution but for many the stumbling block will be Turkeys security guarantees, the OSCE is one option but a weak one at that but if an alternative is found whereby they are station here on the island mandated and armed to act in times of crisis immediately and without political interference of either state then people just might go for it especially if Turkey is in the mix but is not allowed to influence decision making mechanism in the north.

As for derogation's, if they are not utilized then they become redundant but if they are constantly called upon then getting rid of them would be out of the question.

[Kikapu]

You appear to be contradicting yourself left right and center please makeup your mind what you want as you appear disorientated and confused.

That's because you are confusing precautions with guarantees. You are allowed limited precautions, or some limited temporary safety measures for the crowd if you feel your players are not safe on the pitch. But you cannot change the rules of the game. The rules are determined by external laws, in Cyprus's case by the EU. In football's case by FIFA. You cannot be allowed to tamper with the laws of the game. Otherwise no-one will agree to play with you and you will have to play all on your own!

Isnt a derogation a change in EU rules? isnt a task force a guarantee? arent the remove of alochol and no weapons policy precautions?

In short we have agreed that to find a solution we have to have compromise and this involves derogation's and guarantees, for these over time these can become redundant if both sides feel they have fulfilled their mission.

You are forgetting one thing. Any derogation is ONLY temporary with set times and not as you put it, "until they become redundant to both sides likings", because with such open ended derogations, it is only open for abuse. Any Guarantee on security can only come from a respected source. Turkey as a force isn't one of them, but can be part of NATO force all the same.

[BirKibrisli]

Piratis,
we have 2 communities who have very little mutual respect,trust,and understanding,let alone empathy and compassion for each other,and you are talking about human rights and democratic principles...You cannot talk about democracy or human rights when the people who are going to live together have absolutely no respect or regard for each other...It will be disastrous,especially for the members of the minority group....Can you not see that???We cannot put the cart before the horse...It will never work...That is why we need an interim solution,to prepare the road to democracy...Once the values I mentioned above have been established,anything is possible...Do you agree?

Respect, trust and empathy can be created only through a democratic system that respects the human rights of all citizens. Cyprus is not the only country that had conflicts and civil wars and problems between ethnic groups. An apartheid kind of system will only create more feelings of injustice that will lead to more hate, mistrust and more problems.

We made the same kind of mistake in 1960 by accepting un undemocratic, racist system which was again seen as an interim solution by most. We should not make the same mistake again. If there will be any interim steps then those steps should be clearly defined and agreed in advance with very specific timeframes. Bad solutions will only lead to worst things, not better.

Why are you being so bloody minded we cannot get to point number 10 before going through the other points, point one being to build trust and understanding, maybe thats what we should be discussing as at the moment because for me and many other TCs the barrier is trust, for example Piratis I do not trust you one iota because you convey a stance that given the opportunity you would shoot me in the head without batting an eyelid, so to counter this mistrust I demand things which you find undemocratic and against your human rights but Bananiot is the far extreme, from his posts and stance I trust him 100% with my future and would go as far as saying I would live in a unitary state with no guarantees whatsoever as I am certain he would treat everyone as equals.

Nobody wants a bad solution,Piratis...By all means lets have those interim steps,define them clearly and set out specific timeframes...I for one take that as a given...But lets not get stuck on idealistic principles and not give an inch,that would lead to disaster for all Cypriots...

Bir,

What you are asking for is reasonable, as far as time frames go, and if I'm not mistaken, Christofias is willing to do that, where there will be some derogation put in place for a period of time for the sides to come together as one. Let me give you one guess as to who is not interested in any temporary derogation but instead insists on permanent derogation for them to become EU's primary laws. With such an attitude, it can ONLY mean we should settle for a bad solution as the one in 1960, which is what the Fascist support, including VP, otherwise he would not have rejected the BBF proposals I made. You cannot ask for a bad solution as starters in the hopes that in a few decades all will be well. By doing so, is giving Cyprus to Turkey on a platter, which not only the GCs will lose, but the TCs also, which some TCs here on the forum are too blind to see that fact. By them insisting on a bad solution, these TCs falsely believe they will become the benefactors on the long run. They are simply too short sighted to see what harm they will bring to themselves, unless giving Cyprus to Turkey is their only aim, in which case, I do not consider them as TCs at all.

Kikapu,I agree that a bad solution is not desirable,but it is better than no solution at all...
This is where we differ...The prolongation of the status quo will bring permanent Partition one step closer which each passing year...People like Piratis is using arguments like yours to oppose any solution,unless it is what they want 100%...Don't be fooled by their democratic principles and human rights arguments...Makarios and Co wanted things their way or the highway back in the 50s and 60s...Those days it was Enosis or bust...These days it is democratic principle, the EU acquis or bust,,,It might be more palatable for some of us,but it cuts no ice with most people living in the trnc,which these days include at least 2 generations of settlers,and those of mixed (settler/TC) background...
I am not buying the argument that in a solution other than what the GCs want cyprus would be handed over to Turkey on a plate..that is pure fantasy and the scare card with which the ROC government keep their people in check...The mentality is still the same.They think they can outmaneuver Turkey and the TCs on international stage with their new found EU weapon...they think they can win this battle with democratic principles and human right arguments,as long as people turn a blind eye to the past events,which they present 100% biased in their own way...But they have met their match with Erdogan and company,who are using the Cyprus card to buy time and advance their own internal and external aspirations...i have little doubt that if Turkey wanted a solution they can have one tomorrow...They do not want one,and the GCs are playing into their hands by being so obstinate and picky about a solution...

[Hermes]

Don't be fooled by their democratic principles and human rights arguments...Makarios and Co wanted things their way or the highway back in the 50s and 60s...Those days it was Enosis or bust...These days it is democratic principle, the EU acquis or bust,,,It might be more palatable for some of us,but it cuts no ice with most people living in the trnc,which these days include at least 2 generations of settlers,and those of mixed (settler/TC) background...
I am not buying the argument that in a solution other than what the GCs want cyprus would be handed over to Turkey on a plate..that is pure fantasy and the scare card with which the ROC government keep their people in check...The mentality is still the same.They think they can outmaneuver Turkey and the TCs on international stage with their new found EU weapon...they think they can win this battle with democratic principles and human right arguments,as long as people turn a blind eye to the past events,which they present 100% biased in their own way...But they have met their match with Erdogan and company,who are using the Cyprus card to buy time and advance their own internal and external aspirations...i have little doubt that if Turkey wanted a solution they can have one tomorrow...They do not want one,and the GCs are playing into their hands by being so obstinate and picky about a solution...

Firstly, democracy and human rights are not a cover for an ulterior motive. This is paranoid nonsense. Democracy and human rights are what would make any solution sustainable. As an EU member, the RoC is obliged to implement the EU acquis which guarantees the rights of all EU citizens. Neither TCs or GCs can opt out of the legal protection that EU law provides. Human rights and legal protection are not a "weapon" against the TCs. Human rights are not a trick foisted upon the people to oppress them! Is this what Turkey is telling TCs these days to keep them in line? Give me strength!

As for Turkey's game of playing for time. Turkey has its own problems as a result of the occupation: financial. legal, strategic, diplomatic. Wiser heads will need to impress upon Erdogan the consequences of keeping the occupation going. Sustaining such a large military occupation abroad doesn't come without its headaches for Turkey. Even Erdogan surely understands this!

GCs are not after an ideal solution. We accept we're not got going to get all we want. But we won't settle for a bad solution that is worse than what we have now. And yes there is such a thing as a bad solution being worse than no solution. The Annan Plan was exactly that. So stop trying to impress upon us that we need to accept a bad solution! And offer us a solution that satisfies our needs for justice, fairness and a future without foreign interference on our island.

[Hermes]

dp

[Piratis]

I agree that a bad solution is not desirable,but it is better than no solution at all

Really? So why don't you accept the solution as we want it then? Probably what you wanted to say is: "a bad solution FOR GCs is better FOR TCs than no solution at all"

So Bir, aren't you picky about a solution? In you case, it is not "your way or the highway"?

You are just as stubborn as we are. The difference being that we are stubborn insisting on democracy, freedom and human rights, while you are stubborn rejecting everything that exists in any other successful state, insisting instead on things such as human rights violations, racist discriminations, forced segregation and an undemocratic system.

So sorry, but we are not going to accept your way. We rather have our way, which is the way of all normal democratic countries, in the free 2/3rds of Cyprus, rather than accept your way and not only officially partition Cyprus but also turn the whole island into some racist, undemocratic puppet state of Turkey.

[Viewpoint]

Bir they will continue to play the democracy, freedom and human rights card for all its worth because they have nothing else to offer they conveniently forget and want us to that they will be in charge to do as they wish. Democracy and human rights in the wrong hands is a catastrophe for minorities and the GCs are the wrong hands. If we are to unite we need checks and balances, guarantee and assurances that neither side will step over the line, exploit, manipulate or dominate the other side.

[Hermes]

Bir they will continue to play the democracy, freedom and human rights card for all its worth because they have nothing else to offer...

Human rights, democracy, freedom, EU citizenship plus a share of the island's potential oil and gas riches! Now you tell me that the average TC is going to prefer more misery, more unemployment, more isolation, more settlers and more of Turkey's false promises. Come off it, VP! Just how dumb do you think your fellow citizens are?

[Viewpoint]

Bir they will continue to play the democracy, freedom and human rights card for all its worth because they have nothing else to offer...

Human rights, democracy, freedom, EU citizenship plus a share of the island's potential oil and gas riches! Now you tell me that the average TC is going to prefer more misery, more unemployment, more isolation, more settlers and more of Turkey's false promises. Come off it, VP! Just how dumb do you think your fellow citizens are?

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