Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

hermes we have tried to give you clear examples of how things can be manipulated and the hidden dangers that we should take extra precautions to avoid yet you still seem to think that the standard rules will make everything ok. Well unfortunately in practice life is never like that we feel the risk is far to great therefore we do not want to throw ourselves into a mentality like yours take a chance things might just work out lets hope for the best which is what you are purposing.

if you know two teams have a proven track record of violence bad will and hooliganism you take extra precautions as the standard precautions are just not enough, thats all we ask for extra precautions to avoid a bloody outcome, but you do not want to give them to us and that has a negative effect on us as we feel even more at risk or that you have hidden agendas that will place us in a more difficult situation in the future.

[Kikapu]

Piratis,
we have 2 communities who have very little mutual respect,trust,and understanding,let alone empathy and compassion for each other,and you are talking about human rights and democratic principles...You cannot talk about democracy or human rights when the people who are going to live together have absolutely no respect or regard for each other...It will be disastrous,especially for the members of the minority group....Can you not see that???We cannot put the cart before the horse...It will never work...That is why we need an interim solution,to prepare the road to democracy...Once the values I mentioned above have been established,anything is possible...Do you agree?

Respect, trust and empathy can be created only through a democratic system that respects the human rights of all citizens. Cyprus is not the only country that had conflicts and civil wars and problems between ethnic groups. An apartheid kind of system will only create more feelings of injustice that will lead to more hate, mistrust and more problems.

We made the same kind of mistake in 1960 by accepting un undemocratic, racist system which was again seen as an interim solution by most. We should not make the same mistake again. If there will be any interim steps then those steps should be clearly defined and agreed in advance with very specific timeframes. Bad solutions will only lead to worst things, not better.

Why are you being so bloody minded we cannot get to point number 10 before going through the other points, point one being to build trust and understanding, maybe thats what we should be discussing as at the moment because for me and many other TCs the barrier is trust, for example Piratis I do not trust you one iota because you convey a stance that given the opportunity you would shoot me in the head without batting an eyelid, so to counter this mistrust I demand things which you find undemocratic and against your human rights but Bananiot is the far extreme, from his posts and stance I trust him 100% with my future and would go as far as saying I would live in a unitary state with no guarantees whatsoever as I am certain he would treat everyone as equals.

Nobody wants a bad solution,Piratis...By all means lets have those interim steps,define them clearly and set out specific timeframes...I for one take that as a given...But lets not get stuck on idealistic principles and not give an inch,that would lead to disaster for all Cypriots...

Bir,

What you are asking for is reasonable, as far as time frames go, and if I'm not mistaken, Christofias is willing to do that, where there will be some derogation put in place for a period of time for the sides to come together as one. Let me give you one guess as to who is not interested in any temporary derogation but instead insists on permanent derogation for them to become EU's primary laws. With such an attitude, it can ONLY mean we should settle for a bad solution as the one in 1960, which is what the Fascist support, including VP, otherwise he would not have rejected the BBF proposals I made. You cannot ask for a bad solution as starters in the hopes that in a few decades all will be well. By doing so, is giving Cyprus to Turkey on a platter, which not only the GCs will lose, but the TCs also, which some TCs here on the forum are too blind to see that fact. By them insisting on a bad solution, these TCs falsely believe they will become the benefactors on the long run. They are simply too short sighted to see what harm they will bring to themselves, unless giving Cyprus to Turkey is their only aim, in which case, I do not consider them as TCs at all.

[Hermes]

hermes we have tried to give you clear examples of how things can be manipulated and the hidden dangers that we should take extra precautions to avoid yet you still seem to think that the standard rules will make everything ok. Well unfortunately in practice life is never like that we feel the risk is far to great therefore we do not want to throw ourselves into a mentality like yours take a chance things might just work out lets hope for the best which is what you are purposing.

if you know two teams have a proven track record of violence bad will and hooliganism you take extra precautions as the standard precautions are just not enough, thats all we ask for extra precautions to avoid a bloody outcome, but you do not want to give them to us and that has a negative effect on us as we feel even more at risk or that you have hidden agendas that will place us in a more difficult situation in the future.

I think you are being offered more than adequate "precautions". Autonomy, full EU rights, temporary derogations, a transitionary peace-keeping force, as well as benefits such as not having to live as pariahs under military rule and prosperity through a share in the island's wealth. In exchange you are being asked to return land and property that doesn't belong to you, to accept a new constitutional order and to loosen your dependence on Turkey. In effect, you are being asked to be citizens in a new EU federal state with all the rights and responsibilities that brings. I know it's a big leap. But it's not as if you have any realistic or superior alternative.

[Viewpoint]

hermes we have tried to give you clear examples of how things can be manipulated and the hidden dangers that we should take extra precautions to avoid yet you still seem to think that the standard rules will make everything ok. Well unfortunately in practice life is never like that we feel the risk is far to great therefore we do not want to throw ourselves into a mentality like yours take a chance things might just work out lets hope for the best which is what you are purposing.

if you know two teams have a proven track record of violence bad will and hooliganism you take extra precautions as the standard precautions are just not enough, thats all we ask for extra precautions to avoid a bloody outcome, but you do not want to give them to us and that has a negative effect on us as we feel even more at risk or that you have hidden agendas that will place us in a more difficult situation in the future.

I think you are being offered more than adequate "precautions". Autonomy, full EU rights, temporary derogations, a transitionary peace-keeping force, as well as benefits such as not having to live as pariahs under military rule and prosperity through a share in the island's wealth. In exchange you are being asked to return land and property that doesn't belong to you, to accept a new constitutional order and to loosen your dependence on Turkey. In effect, you are being asked to be citizens in a new EU federal state with all the rights and responsibilities that brings. I know it's a big leap. But it's not as if you have any realistic or superior alternative.

I have no problem with the above headings its the small print that concerns me...give me those details and then we might get somewhere. So now finally thank you for accepting that extra precautionary measures are necessary so that this football match is played out in safety and successfully.

[Hermes]

hermes we have tried to give you clear examples of how things can be manipulated and the hidden dangers that we should take extra precautions to avoid yet you still seem to think that the standard rules will make everything ok. Well unfortunately in practice life is never like that we feel the risk is far to great therefore we do not want to throw ourselves into a mentality like yours take a chance things might just work out lets hope for the best which is what you are purposing.

if you know two teams have a proven track record of violence bad will and hooliganism you take extra precautions as the standard precautions are just not enough, thats all we ask for extra precautions to avoid a bloody outcome, but you do not want to give them to us and that has a negative effect on us as we feel even more at risk or that you have hidden agendas that will place us in a more difficult situation in the future.

I think you are being offered more than adequate "precautions". Autonomy, full EU rights, temporary derogations, a transitionary peace-keeping force, as well as benefits such as not having to live as pariahs under military rule and prosperity through a share in the island's wealth. In exchange you are being asked to return land and property that doesn't belong to you, to accept a new constitutional order and to loosen your dependence on Turkey. In effect, you are being asked to be citizens in a new EU federal state with all the rights and responsibilities that brings. I know it's a big leap. But it's not as if you have any realistic or superior alternative.

I have no problem with the above headings its the small print that concerns me...give me those details and then we might get somewhere. So now finally thank you for accepting that extra precautionary measures are necessary so that this football match is played out in safety and successfully.

VP, precautions are always necessary before a football match. I made that clear. What cannot be changed are the rules of the game to suit any one side. Say if Japan plays Nigeria, the Japanese cannot ask that heading the ball be outlawed because Nigeria are a taller and bigger team! That would be absurd. Each team plays to its strengths and in accordance to FIFA rules. And if any side's fans cause trouble then FIFA can take sanctions against that team: say play behind closed doors or suspend the team from competitions. They can also expel teams from competitions altogether. Precautions and sanctions are part of enforcing the laws of the game.

Where has anyone said that no precautions will be necessary in a federal Cyprus? What cannot be allowed to happen is to re-inforce or legalise the principle of enforced segregation and human rights abuses. No-one wants to turn Cyprus into apartheid-era South Africa.

[Viewpoint]

Please dont take a step backwards as you have accepted that extra precautions are vital to ensure the match is played fairly and peacefully, whereas originally you thought we should just take standard precautions which would leave everyone attending the match at great risk.

We are not afraid of playing the football match we are asking that the goal posts are not continuously moved or that the referee is not bribed.

[Hermes]

Please dont take a step backwards as you have accepted that extra precautions are vital to ensure the match is played fairly and peacefully, whereas originally you thought we should just take standard precautions which would leave everyone attending the match at great risk.

We are not afraid of playing the football match we are asking that the goal posts are not continuously moved or that the referee is not bribed.

VP, do you actually read other people's posts or just see what you want to see? I said at the beginning and I quote:

I agree. You will need precautions. Most games are policed. And high-profile games are policed with better vigilance. And certainly spectators are not allowed to bring weapons to matches...But the basic rules of the game are not changed. No side is allowed an unfair advantage over the other before the game starts or during play. And no side is able to demand that the game's rules be changed because it is a smaller team, say, or because the players are not as good as the others. Everyone is equal under the laws of the game...

Now how on earth can you say I demanded no precautions? Plus I have said the GCs have accepted the notion of limited and temporary derogations plus would be willing to accept a transitionary peace-keeping force to enforce a settlement. This is not, however, what is preventing a solution. Turkey's demands, via Eroglu, are demanding we play a new kind of game, with our hands and feet shackled, and it's not football.

[Viewpoint]

Please dont take a step backwards as you have accepted that extra precautions are vital to ensure the match is played fairly and peacefully, whereas originally you thought we should just take standard precautions which would leave everyone attending the match at great risk.

We are not afraid of playing the football match we are asking that the goal posts are not continuously moved or that the referee is not bribed.

VP, do you actually read other people's posts or just see what you want to see? I said at the beginning and I quote:

I agree. You will need precautions. Most games are policed. And high-profile games are policed with better vigilance. And certainly spectators are not allowed to bring weapons to matches...But the basic rules of the game are not changed. No side is allowed an unfair advantage over the other before the game starts or during play. And no side is able to demand that the game's rules be changed because it is a smaller team, say, or because the players are not as good as the others. Everyone is equal under the laws of the game...

Now how on earth can you say I demanded no precautions? Plus I have said the GCs have accepted the notion of limited and temporary derogations plus would be willing to accept a transitionary peace-keeping force to enforce a settlement. This is not, however, what is preventing a solution. Turkey's demands, via Eroglu, are demanding we play a new kind of game, with our hands and feet shackled, and it's not football.

I think you are yet again confusing matters, your initial comment after reading the football match analogy was in fact

"Er, sorry, Bir. I don't know of any football match where the players of a team need specific guarantees before they step out on to the pitch"

Then you changed to "I agree. You will need precautions.."

Only to go onto add "GCs have accepted the notion of limited and temporary derogations plus would be willing to accept a transitionary peace-keeping force to enforce a settlement." isnt this in itself changing the rules of the game?

You appear to be contradicting yourself left right and center please makeup your mind what you want as you appear disorientated and confused.

[Hermes]

You appear to be contradicting yourself left right and center please makeup your mind what you want as you appear disorientated and confused.

That's because you are confusing precautions with guarantees. You are allowed limited precautions, or some limited temporary safety measures for the crowd if you feel your players are not safe on the pitch. But you cannot change the rules of the game. The rules are determined by external laws, in Cyprus's case by the EU. In football's case by FIFA. You cannot be allowed to tamper with the laws of the game. Otherwise no-one will agree to play with you and you will have to play all on your own!

[Viewpoint]

You appear to be contradicting yourself left right and center please makeup your mind what you want as you appear disorientated and confused.

That's because you are confusing precautions with guarantees. You are allowed limited precautions, or some limited temporary safety measures for the crowd if you feel your players are not safe on the pitch. But you cannot change the rules of the game. The rules are determined by external laws, in Cyprus's case by the EU. In football's case by FIFA. You cannot be allowed to tamper with the laws of the game. Otherwise no-one will agree to play with you and you will have to play all on your own!

Isnt a derogation a change in EU rules? isnt a task force a guarantee? arent the remove of alochol and no weapons policy precautions?

In short we have agreed that to find a solution we have to have compromise and this involves derogation's and guarantees, for these over time these can become redundant if both sides feel they have fulfilled their mission.