Cyprus-Forum.com

[Hermes]

we have 2 communities who have very little mutual respect,trust,and understanding,let alone empathy and compassion for each other,and you are talking about human rights and democratic principles...You cannot talk about democracy or human rights when the people who are going to live together have absolutely no respect or regard for each other...It will be disastrous,especially for the members of the minority group....Can you not see that???We cannot put the cart before the horse...It will never work...That is why we need an interim solution,to prepare the road to democracy...Once the values I mentioned above have been established,anything is possible...Do you agree?

You are talking nonsense. If the solution is democratic and fully respects the human rights of all citizens, why should there be antipathy and hostility between any of Cyprus's communities? It is only if a solution is unfair and sacrifices the rights of its citizens to appease external agents that a solution is liable to break down and lead to conflict. TCs should have nothing to fear from a democratic solution that would guarantee their human rights under EU law. In fact, it is the only way that TCs can prosper and survive as a viable community on the island. Anything else is asking for privileged treatment at the expense of other's rights. A strategy that has so far led the TCs to the point of disaster.

Who will guarantee this? the GCs???? please be realistic and not idiotic.

Who will guarantee a solution VP? If it's not Turkey (unacceptable to us) and it's not the GCs (unacceptable to you), who do you think should enforce a solution that would be acceptable to all communities on the island?

[Viewpoint]

we have 2 communities who have very little mutual respect,trust,and understanding,let alone empathy and compassion for each other,and you are talking about human rights and democratic principles...You cannot talk about democracy or human rights when the people who are going to live together have absolutely no respect or regard for each other...It will be disastrous,especially for the members of the minority group....Can you not see that???We cannot put the cart before the horse...It will never work...That is why we need an interim solution,to prepare the road to democracy...Once the values I mentioned above have been established,anything is possible...Do you agree?

You are talking nonsense. If the solution is democratic and fully respects the human rights of all citizens, why should there be antipathy and hostility between any of Cyprus's communities? It is only if a solution is unfair and sacrifices the rights of its citizens to appease external agents that a solution is liable to break down and lead to conflict. TCs should have nothing to fear from a democratic solution that would guarantee their human rights under EU law. In fact, it is the only way that TCs can prosper and survive as a viable community on the island. Anything else is asking for privileged treatment at the expense of other's rights. A strategy that has so far led the TCs to the point of disaster.

Who will guarantee this? the GCs???? please be realistic and not idiotic.

Who will guarantee a solution VP? If it's not Turkey (unacceptable to us) and it's not the GCs (unacceptable to you), who do you think should enforce a solution that would be acceptable to all communities on the island?

Thats easy VP and hermes would if they both believed in the solution, but thats not what you are offering me you are offering the GC solution or the highway.

[Hermes]

we have 2 communities who have very little mutual respect,trust,and understanding,let alone empathy and compassion for each other,and you are talking about human rights and democratic principles...You cannot talk about democracy or human rights when the people who are going to live together have absolutely no respect or regard for each other...It will be disastrous,especially for the members of the minority group....Can you not see that???We cannot put the cart before the horse...It will never work...That is why we need an interim solution,to prepare the road to democracy...Once the values I mentioned above have been established,anything is possible...Do you agree?

You are talking nonsense. If the solution is democratic and fully respects the human rights of all citizens, why should there be antipathy and hostility between any of Cyprus's communities? It is only if a solution is unfair and sacrifices the rights of its citizens to appease external agents that a solution is liable to break down and lead to conflict. TCs should have nothing to fear from a democratic solution that would guarantee their human rights under EU law. In fact, it is the only way that TCs can prosper and survive as a viable community on the island. Anything else is asking for privileged treatment at the expense of other's rights. A strategy that has so far led the TCs to the point of disaster.

Who will guarantee this? the GCs???? please be realistic and not idiotic.

Who will guarantee a solution VP? If it's not Turkey (unacceptable to us) and it's not the GCs (unacceptable to you), who do you think should enforce a solution that would be acceptable to all communities on the island?

Thats easy VP and hermes would.

Answer the question please.

[Viewpoint]

Who will guarantee this? the GCs???? please be realistic and not idiotic.
Who will guarantee a solution VP? If it's not Turkey (unacceptable to us) and it's not the GCs (unacceptable to you), who do you think should enforce a solution that would be acceptable to all communities on the island?

Thats easy VP and hermes would.

Answer the question please.

We would work together to guarantee all parties complied with a solution agreed between us, plus these are international agreements which should include penalties for reneging parties.

You would have my back and I yours, thats what is called a partnership and looking out for one anothers best interests.

[denizaksulu]

Who will guarantee this? the GCs???? please be realistic and not idiotic.
Who will guarantee a solution VP? If it's not Turkey (unacceptable to us) and it's not the GCs (unacceptable to you), who do you think should enforce a solution that would be acceptable to all communities on the island?

Thats easy VP and hermes would.

Answer the question please.

We would work together to guarantee all parties complied with a solution agreed between us, plus these are international agreements which should include penalties for reneging parties.

You would have my back and I yours, thats what is called a partnership and looking out for one anothers best interests.

Good point VP.

[BirKibrisli]

Piratis,
we have 2 communities who have very little mutual respect,trust,and understanding,let alone empathy and compassion for each other,and you are talking about human rights and democratic principles...You cannot talk about democracy or human rights when the people who are going to live together have absolutely no respect or regard for each other...It will be disastrous,especially for the members of the minority group....Can you not see that???We cannot put the cart before the horse...It will never work...That is why we need an interim solution,to prepare the road to democracy...Once the values I mentioned above have been established,anything is possible...Do you agree?

Respect, trust and empathy can be created only through a democratic system that respects the human rights of all citizens. Cyprus is not the only country that had conflicts and civil wars and problems between ethnic groups. An apartheid kind of system will only create more feelings of injustice that will lead to more hate, mistrust and more problems.

We made the same kind of mistake in 1960 by accepting un undemocratic, racist system which was again seen as an interim solution by most. We should not make the same mistake again. If there will be any interim steps then those steps should be clearly defined and agreed in advance with very specific timeframes. Bad solutions will only lead to worst things, not better.

Why are you being so bloody minded we cannot get to point number 10 before going through the other points, point one being to build trust and understanding, maybe thats what we should be discussing as at the moment because for me and many other TCs the barrier is trust, for example Piratis I do not trust you one iota because you convey a stance that given the opportunity you would shoot me in the head without batting an eyelid, so to counter this mistrust I demand things which you find undemocratic and against your human rights but Bananiot is the far extreme, from his posts and stance I trust him 100% with my future and would go as far as saying I would live in a unitary state with no guarantees whatsoever as I am certain he would treat everyone as equals.

Nobody wants a bad solution,Piratis...By all means lets have those interim steps,define them clearly and set out specific timeframes...I for one take that as a given...But lets not get stuck on idealistic principles and not give an inch,that would lead to disaster for all Cypriots...

[BirKibrisli]

we have 2 communities who have very little mutual respect,trust,and understanding,let alone empathy and compassion for each other,and you are talking about human rights and democratic principles...You cannot talk about democracy or human rights when the people who are going to live together have absolutely no respect or regard for each other...It will be disastrous,especially for the members of the minority group....Can you not see that???We cannot put the cart before the horse...It will never work...That is why we need an interim solution,to prepare the road to democracy...Once the values I mentioned above have been established,anything is possible...Do you agree?

You are talking nonsense. If the solution is democratic and fully respects the human rights of all citizens, why should there be antipathy and hostility between any of Cyprus's communities? It is only if a solution is unfair and sacrifices the rights of its citizens to appease external agents that a solution is liable to break down and lead to conflict. TCs should have nothing to fear from a democratic solution that would guarantee their human rights under EU law. In fact, it is the only way that TCs can prosper and survive as a viable community on the island. Anything else is asking for privileged treatment at the expense of other's rights. A strategy that has so far led the TCs to the point of disaster.

Hermes,you are fast taking over Piratis' role as the most stubborn,least flexible,most obstinate poster here...Wake up ,mate...There is a football game being organised between two sides who are sworn enemies,are at each other's throats,mistrust each other ,and cannot bear to talk to each other...I say,"hey lets get these people together before the match and try to sort out their differnces,or at least try to improve their understanding and respect of each other"...You and Piratis say,"Noooo,all we need is a good referee and some rules everybody should respect,and all will be apples'....Then you start the game and not only do the players start kicking the shit out of each other,but the spectators join in as well...Is that what you want for our people???? And who do you think would come out of it in worse condition...??? Answer these questions honestly and you will know why the TCs want specific guarantees before they step on the pitch...

[Hermes]

Hermes,you are fast taking over Piratis' role as the most stubborn,least flexible,most obstinate poster here...Wake up ,mate...There is a football game being organised between two sides who are sworn enemies,are at each other's throats,mistrust each other ,and cannot bear to talk to each other...I say,"hey lets get these people together before the match and try to sort out their differnces,or at least try to improve their understanding and respect of each other"...You and Piratis say,"Noooo,all we need is a good referee and some rules everybody should respect,and all will be apples'....Then you start the game and not only do the players start kicking the shit out of each other,but the spectators join in as well...Is that what you want for our people???? And who do you think would come out of it in worse condition...??? Answer these questions honestly and you will know why the TCs want specific guarantees before they step on the pitch...

Er, sorry, Bir. I don't know of any football match where the players of a team need specific guarantees before they step out on to the pitch. Most football matches are played under FIFA rules and adjudicated by FIFA officials. No football team in the history of the game has tried to ask for additional rules or guarantees to be applied to the game specifically for them. The rules are good enough the world over and accepted worldwide. Any team that asked for its own set of rules or exemptions from the game would be thrown out of FIFA competitions and embargoed!

Indeed when Barcelona play Real Madrid or if North Korea played South Korea, there are only the laws of FIFA. There are no "derogations" from the rules because one side distrusts or dislikes the other. There are only the laws of the game, established over the decades, to ensure that there is fair play. If any player breaks the rules or commits a "foul" then they are penalised according to the rules of the game. As a result each player is treated equally on the pitch without discrimination. That is as it should be.

[Viewpoint]

Hermes,you are fast taking over Piratis' role as the most stubborn,least flexible,most obstinate poster here...Wake up ,mate...There is a football game being organised between two sides who are sworn enemies,are at each other's throats,mistrust each other ,and cannot bear to talk to each other...I say,"hey lets get these people together before the match and try to sort out their differnces,or at least try to improve their understanding and respect of each other"...You and Piratis say,"Noooo,all we need is a good referee and some rules everybody should respect,and all will be apples'....Then you start the game and not only do the players start kicking the shit out of each other,but the spectators join in as well...Is that what you want for our people???? And who do you think would come out of it in worse condition...??? Answer these questions honestly and you will know why the TCs want specific guarantees before they step on the pitch...

Er, sorry, Bir. I don't know of any football match where the players of a team need specific guarantees before they step out on to the pitch. Most football matches are played under FIFA rules and adjudicated by FIFA officials. No football team in the history of the game has tried to ask for additional rules or guarantees to be applied to the game specifically for them. The rules are good enough the world over and accepted worldwide. Any team that asked for its own set of rules or exemptions from the game would be thrown out of FIFA competitions and embargoed!

Indeed when Barcelona play Real Madrid or if North Korea played South Korea, there are only the laws of FIFA. There are no "derogations" from the rules because one side distrusts or dislikes the other. There are only the laws of the game, established over the decades, to ensure that there is fair play. If any player breaks the rules or commits a "foul" then they are penalised according to the rules of the game. As a result each player is treated equally on the pitch without discrimination. That is as it should be.

Can you bring in extra police?

Throw out the spectators if need be?

Check people when coming in for weapons?

Have no spectators?

Will you arrange a match knowing full well that all hell will break loose?

There are many extra precautions that can be taken you are just being bloody minded and playing a very dangerous game.

[Hermes]

Can you bring in extra police?

Throw out the spectators if need be?

Check people when coming in for weapons?

Have no spectators?

Will you arrange a match knowing full well that all hell will break loose?

There are many extra precautions that can be taken you are just being bloody minded and playing a very dangerous game.

I agree. You will need precautions. Most games are policed. And high-profile games are policed with better vigilance. And certainly spectators are not allowed to bring weapons to matches. But you don't assume players will assault each other either. During play you expect them to adhere to the spirit of the game. If they don't they can be sanctioned by FIFA. If trouble breaks out, the guilty will be punished under FIFA law. But the basic rules of the game are not changed. No side is allowed an unfair advantage over the other before the game starts or during play. And no side is able to demand that the game's rules be changed because it is a smaller team, say, or because the players are not as good as the others. Everyone is equal under the laws of the game. That is how it should be. Otherwise we might as well throw away the rule book. But then there would be chaos and no-one would know what the fuck was going on. That is why we have laws and rules that everyone can understand and everyone respects.