Cyprus-Forum.com

[Hermes]

You don't have to say you want Enosis now,Hermes...You might not even find it attractive any longer....But you cannot deny that it was the dream of your fathers and grandfathers,and they fought hard to achieve it...And they hated the TCs for standing in their way...This hatred is in your blood,your genes,your brain,your collective consciousness...You simply cannot get away from it...You are poisoned by it,and it dominates every thought you have...Your hatred and mistrust of the TCs is what stops you from seeing things as they are...You live in a fools paradise,and you expect the world to come and save you from yourself...It is not going to happen...Get that into your head...

Really, Birkturk. Quite the nuttiest of your posts by a long way. GCs mistrust the TCs not because they barred our way to enosis in the 1950s. But because they have allied themselves to the Turkish occupation forces since 1974 at our expense. And continue to do so till this day. You don't have to go back to the 1950s to look for reasons why GCs distrust TCs.

[Piratis]

You are being paranoid,Piratis...If there is a BBF and a strong central government,how will Turkey control the whole of Cyprus???? I know you have been harping on this,but I fail to see your reasoning...Please,take the time to outline the process by which Turkey can influence the whole of Cyprus via her puppets,as you say...Let us see if steps can be taken to address your concerns...Imagine we have agreed to a BBF,we have a federal government controlling immigration,defence,foreign affairs,treasury etc...Tell me how Turkey can subvert this system...

Turkey would control the whole of Cyprus in a similar way that they control the "trnc" today.

I hope you do not question the fact that all important and strategic decisions of the Turkish side, not just today but from the 50s and even earlier, are taken by Turkey. This was the case, is the case, and will continue to be the case for as long as TCs depend and are indebted to Turkey.

The TCs will continue to be indebted to Turkey for as long as they have gains (or gain expectations) that rely on the Turkish military power. The TCs are a minority of 18%. Anything above their rights as a equal Cypriot citizens plus some additional minority rights, is not something which they deserve, but something which is gained by means of brute force and blackmail. And since the TCs do not have the power to force their unfair terms themselves, they rely on Turkey to do it for them.

Obviously Turkey doesn't offer her services for free. They expect a return on their investment, and this return is the obedience of the TCs in any issue that Turkey deems as strategic or important.

Your so called "solution" would create an undemocratic system where the puppets of Turkey would hold 50% of the power. As a result any decision that Cyprus takes will have to be in agreement with Turkey or else we would have deadlocks and the whole system would collapse again. The whole Cyprus would be a hostage of Turkey as the north part is today.

Therefore a real solution can only be one that creates a democratic system that frees the TCs from any debts to Turkey. This can happen by TCs getting what they actually deserve just like all other minorities in Cyprus and all other minorities in every other succesful democratic country in the world.

Since you will not accept this, then obviously is far better for us to keep 1/3rd of Cyprus free and continue our struggle to liberate the remaining 3rd, rather than agreeing on something that would officially Turkify the north part of Cyprus and at the same time turn the whole island into a banana republic of Turkey.

The TCs can never be free of their debt to Turkey,Piratis...Forget it...You cannot walk out on someone who has literally saved your life...But that does not mean the TCs,after international agreements and guarantees,and a water tight constitution,would not act independently of Turkey on most matters...You are simply using this as an excuse not to share power equally with the TCs...That was the case back in the 60s,and that was the reason we are where we are...Nothing has changed in all this time...And nothing will change until you see the light...But you might have to experience running into a few more trains in your tunnel before that happens...

I don't need any excuse to reject an undemocratic and racist system such as the one you want. In Turkey with under 10% of votes you don't even get a single seat in the parliment and for Cyprus you want a less than 10% of the population (most of whom could actually be Settlers) to be able to determine the destiny of the whole country (or force the system to collapse with deadlocks).

And no, nothing has changed. You are a minority now and you have always been a minority, and yet you are trying with brute force and blackmail to have your minority of 18% equated to the 82% majority. What we are asking is what exists in every other democratic country in the world. It is your minority with your unfair demands which is causing the problems. There is a Greek minority in Turkey. If what you are asking is fair, then how about if the Turks share the power in Turkey equally with the Greeks? What is their excuse for not doing so?

You cannot reduce the Cyprus problem to just democratic principles and human rights issues,Piratis,yet you keep trying to do just that...If it was that simple the World,or the USA at least,would've slapped Turkey across the face and told her to get out...By refusing to acknowledge the historical,socio-political,geographical and global aspects of our little problem,you are making sure no solution will ever be found...On your head be it...

Human rights and democratic principles is 90% of what the Problem in the Cyprus Problem is. If you do not agree that this is the Problem then obviously you have a different problem than the one I do. If you just care to solve your own problem without solving mine, then obviously the result will be something that only you will support. Why would I support something that doesn't solve my problem but only solves yours?

[BirKibrisli]

You don't have to say you want Enosis now,Hermes...You might not even find it attractive any longer....But you cannot deny that it was the dream of your fathers and grandfathers,and they fought hard to achieve it...And they hated the TCs for standing in their way...This hatred is in your blood,your genes,your brain,your collective consciousness...You simply cannot get away from it...You are poisoned by it,and it dominates every thought you have...Your hatred and mistrust of the TCs is what stops you from seeing things as they are...You live in a fools paradise,and you expect the world to come and save you from yourself...It is not going to happen...Get that into your head...

Really, Birkturk. Quite the nuttiest of your posts by a long way. GCs mistrust the TCs not because they barred our way to enosis in the 1950s. But because they have allied themselves to the Turkish occupation forces since 1974 at our expense. And continue to do so till this day. You don't have to go back to the 1950s to look for reasons why GCs distrust TCs.

And why did the TCs ally themselves to Turkey??? Are you aware of the events which took place between 1963 and 1974???? Or are you,like most GCs here,totally brainwashed to believe the GC state propaganda lines????

[Viewpoint]

The brainwashed GCs on this forum still believe that the problems started in 1974 and that they had nothing to do with events and developments which culminated in the division of the island, which in reality did bring peace tranquility and wealth.

[Piratis]

Nobody believes that the problems started in 1974. The problem of foreign oppressors denying to the Cypriot people their freedom goes back centruries, and much of it was caused by Turks.

But the GCs are forgiving people. Today for example we live together with the Latin minority and there is not any hate against them because of the oppression suffered by the Latins in the past. Those TCs who are hated are hated because of the crimes they commit against us as we speak, not because of the crimes they commited against us in the past.

The TCs were aligned with the Turks right from the beginning, since they were initially Turkish/Muslim Settlers or GCs and Latins who converted to Islam and choose to align themselves with the Turks in order to enjoy the privileges. The problem is that at no point they respected the right of the Cypriot people to decide the destiny of their own island democratically, but they instead continued to collaborate with the Turks to violate our human and democratic rights. That was the case in the 50s, 60s, 70s and continues to be the case today.

[BirKibrisli]

You are being paranoid,Piratis...If there is a BBF and a strong central government,how will Turkey control the whole of Cyprus???? I know you have been harping on this,but I fail to see your reasoning...Please,take the time to outline the process by which Turkey can influence the whole of Cyprus via her puppets,as you say...Let us see if steps can be taken to address your concerns...Imagine we have agreed to a BBF,we have a federal government controlling immigration,defence,foreign affairs,treasury etc...Tell me how Turkey can subvert this system...

Turkey would control the whole of Cyprus in a similar way that they control the "trnc" today.

I hope you do not question the fact that all important and strategic decisions of the Turkish side, not just today but from the 50s and even earlier, are taken by Turkey. This was the case, is the case, and will continue to be the case for as long as TCs depend and are indebted to Turkey.

The TCs will continue to be indebted to Turkey for as long as they have gains (or gain expectations) that rely on the Turkish military power. The TCs are a minority of 18%. Anything above their rights as a equal Cypriot citizens plus some additional minority rights, is not something which they deserve, but something which is gained by means of brute force and blackmail. And since the TCs do not have the power to force their unfair terms themselves, they rely on Turkey to do it for them.

Obviously Turkey doesn't offer her services for free. They expect a return on their investment, and this return is the obedience of the TCs in any issue that Turkey deems as strategic or important.

Your so called "solution" would create an undemocratic system where the puppets of Turkey would hold 50% of the power. As a result any decision that Cyprus takes will have to be in agreement with Turkey or else we would have deadlocks and the whole system would collapse again. The whole Cyprus would be a hostage of Turkey as the north part is today.

Therefore a real solution can only be one that creates a democratic system that frees the TCs from any debts to Turkey. This can happen by TCs getting what they actually deserve just like all other minorities in Cyprus and all other minorities in every other succesful democratic country in the world.

Since you will not accept this, then obviously is far better for us to keep 1/3rd of Cyprus free and continue our struggle to liberate the remaining 3rd, rather than agreeing on something that would officially Turkify the north part of Cyprus and at the same time turn the whole island into a banana republic of Turkey.

The TCs can never be free of their debt to Turkey,Piratis...Forget it...You cannot walk out on someone who has literally saved your life...But that does not mean the TCs,after international agreements and guarantees,and a water tight constitution,would not act independently of Turkey on most matters...You are simply using this as an excuse not to share power equally with the TCs...That was the case back in the 60s,and that was the reason we are where we are...Nothing has changed in all this time...And nothing will change until you see the light...But you might have to experience running into a few more trains in your tunnel before that happens...

I don't need any excuse to reject an undemocratic and racist system such as the one you want. In Turkey with under 10% of votes you don't even get a single seat in the parliment and for Cyprus you want a less than 10% of the population (most of whom could actually be Settlers) to be able to determine the destiny of the whole country (or force the system to collapse with deadlocks).

And no, nothing has changed. You are a minority now and you have always been a minority, and yet you are trying with brute force and blackmail to have your minority of 18% equated to the 82% majority. What we are asking is what exists in every other democratic country in the world. It is your minority with your unfair demands which is causing the problems. There is a Greek minority in Turkey. If what you are asking is fair, then how about if the Turks share the power in Turkey equally with the Greeks? What is their excuse for not doing so?

You cannot reduce the Cyprus problem to just democratic principles and human rights issues,Piratis,yet you keep trying to do just that...If it was that simple the World,or the USA at least,would've slapped Turkey across the face and told her to get out...By refusing to acknowledge the historical,socio-political,geographical and global aspects of our little problem,you are making sure no solution will ever be found...On your head be it...

Human rights and democratic principles is 90% of what the Problem in the Cyprus Problem is. If you do not agree that this is the Problem then obviously you have a different problem than the one I do. If you just care to solve your own problem without solving mine, then obviously the result will be something that only you will support. Why would I support something that doesn't solve my problem but only solves yours?

Piratis,
we have 2 communities who have very little mutual respect,trust,and understanding,let alone empathy and compassion for each other,and you are talking about human rights and democratic principles...You cannot talk about democracy or human rights when the people who are going to live together have absolutely no respect or regard for each other...It will be disastrous,especially for the members of the minority group....Can you not see that???We cannot put the cart before the horse...It will never work...That is why we need an interim solution,to prepare the road to democracy...Once the values I mentioned above have been established,anything is possible...Do you agree?

[Piratis]

Piratis,
we have 2 communities who have very little mutual respect,trust,and understanding,let alone empathy and compassion for each other,and you are talking about human rights and democratic principles...You cannot talk about democracy or human rights when the people who are going to live together have absolutely no respect or regard for each other...It will be disastrous,especially for the members of the minority group....Can you not see that???We cannot put the cart before the horse...It will never work...That is why we need an interim solution,to prepare the road to democracy...Once the values I mentioned above have been established,anything is possible...Do you agree?

Respect, trust and empathy can be created only through a democratic system that respects the human rights of all citizens. Cyprus is not the only country that had conflicts and civil wars and problems between ethnic groups. An apartheid kind of system will only create more feelings of injustice that will lead to more hate, mistrust and more problems.

We made the same kind of mistake in 1960 by accepting un undemocratic, racist system which was again seen as an interim solution by most. We should not make the same mistake again. If there will be any interim steps then those steps should be clearly defined and agreed in advance with very specific timeframes. Bad solutions will only lead to worst things, not better.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis,
we have 2 communities who have very little mutual respect,trust,and understanding,let alone empathy and compassion for each other,and you are talking about human rights and democratic principles...You cannot talk about democracy or human rights when the people who are going to live together have absolutely no respect or regard for each other...It will be disastrous,especially for the members of the minority group....Can you not see that???We cannot put the cart before the horse...It will never work...That is why we need an interim solution,to prepare the road to democracy...Once the values I mentioned above have been established,anything is possible...Do you agree?

Respect, trust and empathy can be created only through a democratic system that respects the human rights of all citizens. Cyprus is not the only country that had conflicts and civil wars and problems between ethnic groups. An apartheid kind of system will only create more feelings of injustice that will lead to more hate, mistrust and more problems.

We made the same kind of mistake in 1960 by accepting un undemocratic, racist system which was again seen as an interim solution by most. We should not make the same mistake again. If there will be any interim steps then those steps should be clearly defined and agreed in advance with very specific timeframes. Bad solutions will only lead to worst things, not better.

Why are you being so bloody minded we cannot get to point number 10 before going through the other points, point one being to build trust and understanding, maybe thats what we should be discussing as at the moment because for me and many other TCs the barrier is trust, for example Piratis I do not trust you one iota because you convey a stance that given the opportunity you would shoot me in the head without batting an eyelid, so to counter this mistrust I demand things which you find undemocratic and against your human rights but Bananiot is the far extreme, from his posts and stance I trust him 100% with my future and would go as far as saying I would live in a unitary state with no guarantees whatsoever as I am certain he would treat everyone as equals.

[Hermes]

we have 2 communities who have very little mutual respect,trust,and understanding,let alone empathy and compassion for each other,and you are talking about human rights and democratic principles...You cannot talk about democracy or human rights when the people who are going to live together have absolutely no respect or regard for each other...It will be disastrous,especially for the members of the minority group....Can you not see that???We cannot put the cart before the horse...It will never work...That is why we need an interim solution,to prepare the road to democracy...Once the values I mentioned above have been established,anything is possible...Do you agree?

You are talking nonsense. If the solution is democratic and fully respects the human rights of all citizens, why should there be antipathy and hostility between any of Cyprus's communities? It is only if a solution is unfair and sacrifices the rights of its citizens to appease external agents that a solution is liable to break down and lead to conflict. TCs should have nothing to fear from a democratic solution that would guarantee their human rights under EU law. In fact, it is the only way that TCs can prosper and survive as a viable community on the island. Anything else is asking for privileged treatment at the expense of other's rights. A strategy that has so far led the TCs to the point of disaster.

[Viewpoint]

we have 2 communities who have very little mutual respect,trust,and understanding,let alone empathy and compassion for each other,and you are talking about human rights and democratic principles...You cannot talk about democracy or human rights when the people who are going to live together have absolutely no respect or regard for each other...It will be disastrous,especially for the members of the minority group....Can you not see that???We cannot put the cart before the horse...It will never work...That is why we need an interim solution,to prepare the road to democracy...Once the values I mentioned above have been established,anything is possible...Do you agree?

You are talking nonsense. If the solution is democratic and fully respects the human rights of all citizens, why should there be antipathy and hostility between any of Cyprus's communities? It is only if a solution is unfair and sacrifices the rights of its citizens to appease external agents that a solution is liable to break down and lead to conflict. TCs should have nothing to fear from a democratic solution that would guarantee their human rights under EU law. In fact, it is the only way that TCs can prosper and survive as a viable community on the island. Anything else is asking for privileged treatment at the expense of other's rights. A strategy that has so far led the TCs to the point of disaster.

Who will guarantee this? the GCs???? please be realistic and not idiotic.