Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

You are being paranoid,Piratis...If there is a BBF and a strong central government,how will Turkey control the whole of Cyprus???? I know you have been harping on this,but I fail to see your reasoning...Please,take the time to outline the process by which Turkey can influence the whole of Cyprus via her puppets,as you say...Let us see if steps can be taken to address your concerns...Imagine we have agreed to a BBF,we have a federal government controlling immigration,defence,foreign affairs,treasury etc...Tell me how Turkey can subvert this system...

Turkey would control the whole of Cyprus in a similar way that they control the "trnc" today.

I hope you do not question the fact that all important and strategic decisions of the Turkish side, not just today but from the 50s and even earlier, are taken by Turkey. This was the case, is the case, and will continue to be the case for as long as TCs depend and are indebted to Turkey.

The TCs will continue to be indebted to Turkey for as long as they have gains (or gain expectations) that rely on the Turkish military power. The TCs are a minority of 18%. Anything above their rights as a equal Cypriot citizens plus some additional minority rights, is not something which they deserve, but something which is gained by means of brute force and blackmail. And since the TCs do not have the power to force their unfair terms themselves, they rely on Turkey to do it for them.

Obviously Turkey doesn't offer her services for free. They expect a return on their investment, and this return is the obedience of the TCs in any issue that Turkey deems as strategic or important.

Your so called "solution" would create an undemocratic system where the puppets of Turkey would hold 50% of the power. As a result any decision that Cyprus takes will have to be in agreement with Turkey or else we would have deadlocks and the whole system would collapse again. The whole Cyprus would be a hostage of Turkey as the north part is today.

Therefore a real solution can only be one that creates a democratic system that frees the TCs from any debts to Turkey. This can happen by TCs getting what they actually deserve just like all other minorities in Cyprus and all other minorities in every other succesful democratic country in the world.

Since you will not accept this, then obviously is far better for us to keep 1/3rd of Cyprus free and continue our struggle to liberate the remaining 3rd, rather than agreeing on something that would officially Turkify the north part of Cyprus and at the same time turn the whole island into a banana republic of Turkey.

The TCs can never be free of their debt to Turkey,Piratis...Forget it...You cannot walk out on someone who has literally saved your life...But that does not mean the TCs,after international agreements and guarantees,and a water tight constitution,would not act independently of Turkey on most matters...You are simply using this as an excuse not to share power equally with the TCs...That was the case back in the 60s,and that was the reason we are where we are...Nothing has changed in all this time...And nothing will change until you see the light...But you might have to experience running into a few more trains in your tunnel before that happens...

[Hermes]

I get it alright...But what you don't get is,you are committing suicide slowly...Like a frog in slow boiling water...

Not at all. GCs are under no obligation to accept Turkey's terms. We prefer what we have now than to give it up for a half-baked confederal solution that would extend and legalize Turkey's involvement in our affairs. Why should we sacrifice our gains? For what? Turkey has no jurisdiction over the South. It cannot stop us exploiting our resources and the north is a permanent albatross around its neck. Without a solution Turkey will lose EU accession and will lose all the diplomatic and economic benefits that would go with it. Turkey will pay a heavy price for continuing the occupation. We'll make sure of that.

In the meantime, you should turn your attention to the TCs who languish under the Turkish jackboot. Have you got any ideas for how they can turn their fate around? Or have you consigned them to the dustbin of history?

[Hermes]

The TCs can never be free of their debt to Turkey,Piratis...Forget it...You cannot walk out on someone who has literally saved your life...But that does not mean the TCs,after international agreements and guarantees,and a water tight constitution,would not act independently of Turkey on most matters...You are simply using this as an excuse not to share power equally with the TCs...That was the case back in the 60s,and that was the reason we are where we are...Nothing has changed in all this time...And nothing will change until you see the light...But you might have to experience running into a few more trains in your tunnel before that happens...

Nonsense. GCs have accepted the principle of a federal solution, equality based on EU law and strong international guarantees. The current proposals of the Turkish side are nothing of the sort. Turkey wants a dissolution of the Republic of Cyprus, the establishment of two equal state entities, a loose confederation and the maintaining of Turkey’s strategic control of Cyprus through a right of intervention. In addition, Turkey wants a settlement which will allow permanent derogations from the acquis communautaire. In other words, permanent violations of human rights and fundamental freedoms.

In effect, Turkey is demanding a legalisation of the status quo and a turning of the island into a Turkish protectorate. Naturally, we don't share this vision of the island. TCs and Turkey need to give up their partitionist and expansionist dreams and commit themselves to a unified independent Cypriot federal state with EU and UN guarantees for all its citizens.

[Piratis]

You are being paranoid,Piratis...If there is a BBF and a strong central government,how will Turkey control the whole of Cyprus???? I know you have been harping on this,but I fail to see your reasoning...Please,take the time to outline the process by which Turkey can influence the whole of Cyprus via her puppets,as you say...Let us see if steps can be taken to address your concerns...Imagine we have agreed to a BBF,we have a federal government controlling immigration,defence,foreign affairs,treasury etc...Tell me how Turkey can subvert this system...

Turkey would control the whole of Cyprus in a similar way that they control the "trnc" today.

I hope you do not question the fact that all important and strategic decisions of the Turkish side, not just today but from the 50s and even earlier, are taken by Turkey. This was the case, is the case, and will continue to be the case for as long as TCs depend and are indebted to Turkey.

The TCs will continue to be indebted to Turkey for as long as they have gains (or gain expectations) that rely on the Turkish military power. The TCs are a minority of 18%. Anything above their rights as a equal Cypriot citizens plus some additional minority rights, is not something which they deserve, but something which is gained by means of brute force and blackmail. And since the TCs do not have the power to force their unfair terms themselves, they rely on Turkey to do it for them.

Obviously Turkey doesn't offer her services for free. They expect a return on their investment, and this return is the obedience of the TCs in any issue that Turkey deems as strategic or important.

Your so called "solution" would create an undemocratic system where the puppets of Turkey would hold 50% of the power. As a result any decision that Cyprus takes will have to be in agreement with Turkey or else we would have deadlocks and the whole system would collapse again. The whole Cyprus would be a hostage of Turkey as the north part is today.

Therefore a real solution can only be one that creates a democratic system that frees the TCs from any debts to Turkey. This can happen by TCs getting what they actually deserve just like all other minorities in Cyprus and all other minorities in every other succesful democratic country in the world.

Since you will not accept this, then obviously is far better for us to keep 1/3rd of Cyprus free and continue our struggle to liberate the remaining 3rd, rather than agreeing on something that would officially Turkify the north part of Cyprus and at the same time turn the whole island into a banana republic of Turkey.

The TCs can never be free of their debt to Turkey,Piratis...Forget it...You cannot walk out on someone who has literally saved your life...But that does not mean the TCs,after international agreements and guarantees,and a water tight constitution,would not act independently of Turkey on most matters...You are simply using this as an excuse not to share power equally with the TCs...That was the case back in the 60s,and that was the reason we are where we are...Nothing has changed in all this time...And nothing will change until you see the light...But you might have to experience running into a few more trains in your tunnel before that happens...

I don't need any excuse to reject an undemocratic and racist system such as the one you want. In Turkey with under 10% of votes you don't even get a single seat in the parliment and for Cyprus you want a less than 10% of the population (most of whom could actually be Settlers) to be able to determine the destiny of the whole country (or force the system to collapse with deadlocks).

And no, nothing has changed. You are a minority now and you have always been a minority, and yet you are trying with brute force and blackmail to have your minority of 18% equated to the 82% majority. What we are asking is what exists in every other democratic country in the world. It is your minority with your unfair demands which is causing the problems. There is a Greek minority in Turkey. If what you are asking is fair, then how about if the Turks share the power in Turkey equally with the Greeks? What is their excuse for not doing so?

[Get Real!]

You are being paranoid,Piratis...If there is a BBF and a strong central government,how will Turkey control the whole of Cyprus???? I know you have been harping on this,but I fail to see your reasoning...Please,take the time to outline the process by which Turkey can influence the whole of Cyprus via her puppets,as you say...Let us see if steps can be taken to address your concerns...Imagine we have agreed to a BBF,we have a federal government controlling immigration,defence,foreign affairs,treasury etc...Tell me how Turkey can subvert this system...

What chances do a handful of converted “Turkish Cypriots” have against an overwhelming majority of mainland Turks in this BBF you guys fantasize about?

Piratis is correct as it would be the equivalent of Turkey running the show!

Let’s face it… in your haste to increase in numbers so as to catch up with the GCs, you ended up vanishing!

Okey Mr Genious,you explain to me ,in detail,how can Turkey manipulate a water tight system,and control the goings on in a foreign country...The GCs will have the majority and political dominance in the Federal governmet...How can Turkey subvert such an arrangement???Please be specific...

Piece of cake!

Upon Turkey’s request, the Turkish state (<- and that’s what it will be) will use the slightest excuse to simply refuse to cooperate any further with the other state!

The last time you abandoned your seats… but this time you’ll just abandon communication and its over!

[BirKibrisli]

I get it alright...But what you don't get is,you are committing suicide slowly...Like a frog in slow boiling water...

Not at all. GCs are under no obligation to accept Turkey's terms. We prefer what we have now than to give it up for a half-baked confederal solution that would extend and legalize Turkey's involvement in our affairs. Why should we sacrifice our gains? For what? Turkey has no jurisdiction over the South. It cannot stop us exploiting our resources and the north is a permanent albatross around its neck. Without a solution Turkey will lose EU accession and will lose all the diplomatic and economic benefits that would go with it. Turkey will pay a heavy price for continuing the occupation. We'll make sure of that.

In the meantime, you should turn your attention to the TCs who languish under the Turkish jackboot. Have you got any ideas for how they can turn their fate around? Or have you consigned them to the dustbin of history?

The offer is for a Federal solution,Hermes,not confederal...I am sure measures can be put in place to make sure Turkey's influence after a solution can be kept at a minimum...

But that is not what you want...You want to get your way 100% with the TCs,as it was the case back in the 50s and 60s...You want revenge on the miserable lot who stood in your way of joining your "motherland"...all your arguments are unrealistic drivel,silly excuses for not agreeing to a compromise solution...

It is too late to save the TCs or their unique cultural identity...They do not consider themselves languishing under the "Turkish jackboot" as you put it...They have returned to their roots,albeit with some painful adjustments and sacrifices,but they are glad to be safe and sound in their beds at the very least...Those who found Turkey's embrace objectionable have either left the country or moved to the South...

I am not sure if it is not too late for the GCs as well...Your fate is no longer in your own hands...The geopolitical power games over the next two decades will decide what amount of independence and sovereignty the ROC will retain...There is no getting away from the Turkish influence and dominance in the region...You can only try to limit it,and by your antics,I can say you are going the wrong way about it...You have managed to turn the Cyprus saga into a fight between the GCs and Turkey,and there is no way you will get out of this in one piece...How far and wide your pieces will be scattered remains to be seen..

[BirKibrisli]

You are being paranoid,Piratis...If there is a BBF and a strong central government,how will Turkey control the whole of Cyprus???? I know you have been harping on this,but I fail to see your reasoning...Please,take the time to outline the process by which Turkey can influence the whole of Cyprus via her puppets,as you say...Let us see if steps can be taken to address your concerns...Imagine we have agreed to a BBF,we have a federal government controlling immigration,defence,foreign affairs,treasury etc...Tell me how Turkey can subvert this system...

Turkey would control the whole of Cyprus in a similar way that they control the "trnc" today.

I hope you do not question the fact that all important and strategic decisions of the Turkish side, not just today but from the 50s and even earlier, are taken by Turkey. This was the case, is the case, and will continue to be the case for as long as TCs depend and are indebted to Turkey.

The TCs will continue to be indebted to Turkey for as long as they have gains (or gain expectations) that rely on the Turkish military power. The TCs are a minority of 18%. Anything above their rights as a equal Cypriot citizens plus some additional minority rights, is not something which they deserve, but something which is gained by means of brute force and blackmail. And since the TCs do not have the power to force their unfair terms themselves, they rely on Turkey to do it for them.

Obviously Turkey doesn't offer her services for free. They expect a return on their investment, and this return is the obedience of the TCs in any issue that Turkey deems as strategic or important.

Your so called "solution" would create an undemocratic system where the puppets of Turkey would hold 50% of the power. As a result any decision that Cyprus takes will have to be in agreement with Turkey or else we would have deadlocks and the whole system would collapse again. The whole Cyprus would be a hostage of Turkey as the north part is today.

Therefore a real solution can only be one that creates a democratic system that frees the TCs from any debts to Turkey. This can happen by TCs getting what they actually deserve just like all other minorities in Cyprus and all other minorities in every other succesful democratic country in the world.

Since you will not accept this, then obviously is far better for us to keep 1/3rd of Cyprus free and continue our struggle to liberate the remaining 3rd, rather than agreeing on something that would officially Turkify the north part of Cyprus and at the same time turn the whole island into a banana republic of Turkey.

The TCs can never be free of their debt to Turkey,Piratis...Forget it...You cannot walk out on someone who has literally saved your life...But that does not mean the TCs,after international agreements and guarantees,and a water tight constitution,would not act independently of Turkey on most matters...You are simply using this as an excuse not to share power equally with the TCs...That was the case back in the 60s,and that was the reason we are where we are...Nothing has changed in all this time...And nothing will change until you see the light...But you might have to experience running into a few more trains in your tunnel before that happens...

I don't need any excuse to reject an undemocratic and racist system such as the one you want. In Turkey with under 10% of votes you don't even get a single seat in the parliment and for Cyprus you want a less than 10% of the population (most of whom could actually be Settlers) to be able to determine the destiny of the whole country (or force the system to collapse with deadlocks).

And no, nothing has changed. You are a minority now and you have always been a minority, and yet you are trying with brute force and blackmail to have your minority of 18% equated to the 82% majority. What we are asking is what exists in every other democratic country in the world. It is your minority with your unfair demands which is causing the problems. There is a Greek minority in Turkey. If what you are asking is fair, then how about if the Turks share the power in Turkey equally with the Greeks? What is their excuse for not doing so?

You cannot reduce the Cyprus problem to just democratic principles and human rights issues,Piratis,yet you keep trying to do just that...If it was that simple the World,or the USA at least,would've slapped Turkey across the face and told her to get out...By refusing to acknowledge the historical,socio-political,geographical and global aspects of our little problem,you are making sure no solution will ever be found...On your head be it...

[Hermes]

The offer is for a Federal solution,Hermes,not confederal...I am sure measures can be put in place to make sure Turkey's influence after a solution can be kept at a minimum...

But that is not what you want...You want to get your way 100% with the TCs,as it was the case back in the 50s and 60s...You want revenge on the miserable lot who stood in your way of joining your "motherland"...all your arguments are unrealistic drivel,silly excuses for not agreeing to a compromise solution...

Bloody hell, Birkturk! Where on earth have I said that I want enosis? Where have I even implied it? Union with Greece hasn't been on the agenda for the majority of GCs since the 1950s and 60s. You really are a bloody dinosaur! For your information Cyprus achieved enosis with Europe in 2004. We are united with the whole bloody European continent these days! Where the hell have you been living lately? In a damp, dark cave?

The whole of Cyprus is European territory now. Did you miss that legal re-occupation of the north by those European invaders? The poor dumb Turkish army is sitting on prime European real estate - illegally. And the EU isn't about to be handing it back to Turkey any time soon. Not now we've found oil and gas off the coast. So Turkey can take its silly scheme to dominate the region and go join its Islamic buddies, Hamas and Hizbollah in that great Islamic theme park Davutglu wants to create. Meanwhile, Israel, the EU and little Cyprus have got other plans.

[BirKibrisli]

You are being paranoid,Piratis...If there is a BBF and a strong central government,how will Turkey control the whole of Cyprus???? I know you have been harping on this,but I fail to see your reasoning...Please,take the time to outline the process by which Turkey can influence the whole of Cyprus via her puppets,as you say...Let us see if steps can be taken to address your concerns...Imagine we have agreed to a BBF,we have a federal government controlling immigration,defence,foreign affairs,treasury etc...Tell me how Turkey can subvert this system...

What chances do a handful of converted “Turkish Cypriots” have against an overwhelming majority of mainland Turks in this BBF you guys fantasize about?

Piratis is correct as it would be the equivalent of Turkey running the show!

Let’s face it… in your haste to increase in numbers so as to catch up with the GCs, you ended up vanishing!

Okey Mr Genious,you explain to me ,in detail,how can Turkey manipulate a water tight system,and control the goings on in a foreign country...The GCs will have the majority and political dominance in the Federal governmet...How can Turkey subvert such an arrangement???Please be specific...

Piece of cake!

Upon Turkey’s request, the Turkish state (<- and that’s what it will be) will use the slightest excuse to simply refuse to cooperate any further with the other state!

The last time you abandoned your seats… but this time you’ll just abandon communication and its over!

Is that it??? And you don't think measures can be put into the agreement or the constitution to make it impossible for one of the states to go alone...???

You either lack goodwill or you have no faith in Cypriot resilience and savoir faire!
Last time the TCs abandoned their seats beause their lives could not be guaranteed by the government...This time,if their lives are not in danger,why wouldn't the TCs enjoy their independence and self-rule???

[BirKibrisli]

The offer is for a Federal solution,Hermes,not confederal...I am sure measures can be put in place to make sure Turkey's influence after a solution can be kept at a minimum...

But that is not what you want...You want to get your way 100% with the TCs,as it was the case back in the 50s and 60s...You want revenge on the miserable lot who stood in your way of joining your "motherland"...all your arguments are unrealistic drivel,silly excuses for not agreeing to a compromise solution...

Bloody hell, Birkturk! Where on earth have I said that I want enosis? Where have I even implied it? Union with Greece hasn't been on the agenda for the majority of GCs since the 1950s and 60s. You really are a bloody dinosaur! For your information Cyprus achieved enosis with Europe in 2004. We are united with the whole bloody European continent these days! Where the hell have you been living lately? In a damp, dark cave?

The whole of Cyprus is European territory now. Did you miss that legal re-occupation of the north by those European invaders? The poor dumb Turkish army is sitting on prime European real estate - illegally. And the EU isn't about to be handing it back to Turkey any time soon. Not now we've found oil and gas off the coast. So Turkey can take its silly scheme to dominate the region and go join its Islamic buddies, Hamas and Hizbollah in that great Islamic theme park Davutglu wants to create. Meanwhile, Israel, the EU and little Cyprus have got other plans.

You don't have to say you want Enosis now,Hermes...You might not even find it attractive any longer....But you cannot deny that it was the dream of your fathers and grandfathers,and they fought hard to achieve it...And they hated the TCs for standing in their way...This hatred is in your blood,your genes,your brain,your collective consciousness...You simply cannot get away from it...You are poisoned by it,and it dominates every thought you have...Your hatred and mistrust of the TCs is what stops you from seeing things as they are...You live in a fools paradise,and you expect the world to come and save you from yourself...It is not going to happen...Get that into your head...