Cyprus-Forum.com

[B25]

It would not surprise me in the slightest if you and Banana were not one and the same.

yeah, lets all accept the annan plan so that Banana and miki mouse man can be happpy about it, just to please their turkish masters.

Hade re, vlaka. You are a disgrace to all decent GCs with your defeatist attitude (just like bananas). You spare no thought for us, but wish to see the otherside prosper at our expense. Its not enough we have to deal with those that would see us enslaved, but we now have to deal with the resident traitors as well, FFS.

VLAKA the Anan plan has been voted by our ex president Clerides and Vasiliou and many other respected people among GCs

So what, just because Clerides wanted to sell us out, does not make it right. 76% of the GC population voted it out. You should respect that democratic decision instead of beating us over the head with it.

Just say that you hate anything Turkish

For as long as they are the invader and occupier, damn right. Does it please you to hear that??? You must be suffering the small man syndrome.

Just I also dislike hypocrites who are there for their own benefit and have destroyed the country beacsue they wanted power money and greed

This is the biggest pile of rubbish ever. How can you accuse the GC refugees of benefitting from their losses. Shame on you, you are a disgrace.

You do not have a formula to end the Turkish occupation but you are siting comfortable and doing nothing this is treason the palestinians are still fighting

.
At least the Palestinians stand united against their foe, unlike some traitors here who do not. Look at yourself in the mirror, you must be ashamed of yourself, You and people like Banana are truely one and the same. The TCs have all but left this board and we are here trying to defend our corner against, supposedly our own. You and others like you are holding up the turkish flag in defiance. And you have the audacity to call me an IDIOT, hade re pou giame.

You have also benefoted from partition and you dont give a shit about all the rest. Selfish hypocrite.

More bollcoks from you, you know jack about what I have and have not, as for benefitting, give me a break, my country is 37% under foreign occupation that you and others are in support of and you say I am benefitting. Plonker.

Do you think I have the power to influence the majority to accept any type of settlement hypocrite fool ? Or I dont have anything better to do .

You have the power to stand shoulder to shoulder against our common enemy instead of fighting me and the general GC at large with your TC/Tr supporting attitude. There is nothing better to do than to stand and fight the enemy, thats your number 1 priority.

[Piratis]

It is not a surprise that Bananiot and his supporter are trying to blame the victims and those who support principles such as democracy and human rights, instead of blaming the aggressors and those who want to impose by force undemocratic and racist systems.

Papadopoulos was one of the best presidents that Cyprus ever had. Nobody who rejected the Annan plan regretted for doing so, but many people certainly regretted for not supporting Papadopoulos in last elections.

If we had accepted the Annan plan not only we would not be able to stop the influx of settlers (we would have no control over the northern coast) but the settlers would be free to roam the whole of Cyprus. But the influx of Settlers is not the only issue. The Annan plan would create far more problems than the few it would solve.

Like I said to Piratis, if you have any idea of how we can go forward, let us have it and we can debate it.

Do you have any idea of how to move forward? You never told us of any such idea. All your ideas are about how to move backward. Today 2/3rds of Cyprus are free and 1/3rd under illegal occupation. Moving forward means liberating that 1/3rd. Your ideas not only would not liberate that 1/3rd but they would instead officially Turkify that part of Cyprus while they would also give to Turkey the power to control the whole of Cyprus.

[repulsewarrior]

Some people want to have a proper state not a Semi Independent State with no National Anthem With two flags with No Ethnicity . Others are the Traitors Who deny the country to function like a Proper State with own identity . I agree with bananiot as long as we accept the wrongdoings of the past these will never change and the problem will be perpetuated until a fully division is materialed and with two states side by side . Some people are very happy with this development because they get an allergy with anything Turkish . Maybe If you follow Bananiot aproach you may convince Turkey that we really deserve a fully democratic state but with these attitude this wont happen. We tried the attitude of the patriots and it Failed. Give others lectures of patritiism and Treason. I maybe also a Traitor because I blame the victim but what can I do ?

I agree with Bananiot because he follows the right path .

Quote:
That federation would comprise a federal government with a single international personality, along with a Turkish Cypriot constituent state and a Greek Cypriot constituent state, which would be of equal status.

...this much we know so far.


Mikiko, Bicommunal does not mean tearing the island in two. It cannot mean two governing bodies ever. If you want to support a Cypriot State, then consider that the ``Greeks`` need to form their own National Assembly, and ``Turks`` need to recognise the supremacy of the State, leaving the Federal Government to defend us as Individuals without discrimination. Thus as Persons within specific Territorial Jurisdictions, it will be possible to have Majority representation for the distinct societies on the island (which include Maronites, and Armenians) because Sovereignty is not an issue. Three (at least) governing bodies need to exist, not two.

...I think that Bananiot is mistaken also, because the debate has nothing to do with ``Greek`` rights and ``Turkish`` rights, rather the Rights we have as equals, as Individuals, and as a People the Rights we afford each other as Persons.

...if you divide us as Cypriots in mutually exclusive lots, you are not on the right path.

[Mikiko]

B25

Clerides tried its best under difficult times much worst than what we have now remember Edjevit and Denktash were on the opposite site . The man was wise to use european membership to solve the Problem so as to have a win win situation . The 76% perecnt of the GCs has voted down the UN plan but the problem is still there it has not been solved. Turkey is still in the North.

The fact that some describe him as a traitor show that these people are confused and dangerous . These two (Clerides and Vasiliou)were very wise and at times when other Parties were very sceptical about Europe and Nato and about the cyprus settlement.

Who is a traitor and who is not a traitor is very subjective I will not comment.

Who said I am fighting the GCs . By calling Turks barbarians criminals do you thihk will help our purpose ? ( Purpose = solve the problem) They are the people we will live with whether we like it or not .

I wish Clerides a good recovery from his Health adventure .

[Bananiot]

Agree!

[Hermes]

Hermes, thanks for the input. In 2004 the Annan Plan permitted 50K to remain. That is true, but you must take note of the children born to mixed marriages. Basically the settlers that would have remained were those that had married Cypriot ladies and had a family. These people (excuse my expression) do breed a lot. They are rather productive and while I can give you the benefit of the doubt about the present day numbers, we need to bear this in mind, plus the tens that come on a regular basis and stay as workers in the beginning but eventually remain for good.

The Annan Plan was debated a great deal here in this forum and elsewhere. One needs to take into account the period before the referendum when the late Papadopoulos won the elections on the promise that he will work hard to solve the Cyprob on the basis of the Annan plan. In the beginning, after he was voted in, he showed a lot of urgency towards this effect and went so far as to send an urgent message to the UN General Secretary (Dc 2003) asking him to arbitrate between the two sides. After this, he did his best to ensure that the Annan plan was as bad as it could get for our side (refused staunchly to ask for Karpasia etc, when it was there for the taking) so that he would ask for a huge "no", especially after the plan was daemonised by all those that did not want a solution based on BBF. He promised the GCs that a better plan was to come from the EU and thus there was no need to vote for the AP.

My problem with this is that the Cyprus problem remains unsolved and those who do not stomach BBF have nothing else to put forward that could be described as a feasible and practical way forward. We are hopelessly stuck in the impasse that has prevailed since and as all sensible politicians across the political spectrum often remind us, the situation gets worse as time goes by. The idea that we can wait for the balance of power to change is frightening and it is a nightmare scenario for all Cypriots as this will no doubt lead to the Turkification of Cyprus.

Like I said to Piratis, if you have any idea of how we can go forward, let us have it and we can debate it.

Your version of the events leading up to the final draft of the Annan Plan is misleading. This has been gone over many times but I'm sure you are aware that as the final plan was being drafted the Turkish FM provided a list of “Final Points” to de Soto with the demand that the changes be made by the UN team. When Erdogan arrived in Bürgenstock, he was informed by Annan that nine of his eleven “points” had been agreed to by the UN team, and that the other two were virtually met. That this was the case became clear when Annan Plan IV was presented to the two sides and the Turkish side then triumphantly leaked the Turkish FM's proposals.

The delegations were then asked by Annan to provide him with their comments on Annan IV, which contained numerous amendments, including changes on core issues and reopening substantial trade-offs, previously agreed, within less than 24 hours so that he could finalise the Plan. The final plan, Annan Plan V, was tabled on 31 March. It met all of Turkey’s demands.

In effect, the Annan Plan accommodated and gave a legal framework to Turkey's occupation of the island. It was a gross betrayal of the Greek Cypriots' rights. It was asking the G/Cs in effect to commit national suicide. We have gone over this many times. You keep on flogging a dead horse...

As to where we go from here. The current UN process looks exhausted. Turkey has seen to that. Christofias has met a wall of belligerence. As EU citizens, G/C demands are not unreasonable - a federal unified state under the EU acquis with equal rights and sovereignty guaranteed by the EU. In exchange, Turkey gets a free path to its EU accession and the economic and diplomatic opportunities that a stable and peaceful Eastern Mediterranean will bring.

Instead, Turkey has been pursuing an out-dated and nonsensical policy of neo-Ottomanism and regional hegemony. This includes hanging on to Cyprus. What choices do we have? We must develop new means to keep the pressure on Turkey: diplomatic, economic and legal. We must open channels to sympathetic T/Cs who fear the threat of extinction. We must use the potential gas revenues as an incentive for a solution. Further, we must make sure that in the international arena the Cyprob is understood to be a case not of G'Cs vs T'Cs but of Cypriots against the Turkish occupation. Above all, we must never lose sight of the justness of our cause or the fact that Cypriots should be the ultimate arbiters of the island's destiny. No-one else.

[repulsewarrior]

Hermes, thanks for the input. In 2004 the Annan Plan permitted 50K to remain. That is true, but you must take note of the children born to mixed marriages. Basically the settlers that would have remained were those that had married Cypriot ladies and had a family. These people (excuse my expression) do breed a lot. They are rather productive and while I can give you the benefit of the doubt about the present day numbers, we need to bear this in mind, plus the tens that come on a regular basis and stay as workers in the beginning but eventually remain for good.

The Annan Plan was debated a great deal here in this forum and elsewhere. One needs to take into account the period before the referendum when the late Papadopoulos won the elections on the promise that he will work hard to solve the Cyprob on the basis of the Annan plan. In the beginning, after he was voted in, he showed a lot of urgency towards this effect and went so far as to send an urgent message to the UN General Secretary (Dc 2003) asking him to arbitrate between the two sides. After this, he did his best to ensure that the Annan plan was as bad as it could get for our side (refused staunchly to ask for Karpasia etc, when it was there for the taking) so that he would ask for a huge "no", especially after the plan was daemonised by all those that did not want a solution based on BBF. He promised the GCs that a better plan was to come from the EU and thus there was no need to vote for the AP.

My problem with this is that the Cyprus problem remains unsolved and those who do not stomach BBF have nothing else to put forward that could be described as a feasible and practical way forward. We are hopelessly stuck in the impasse that has prevailed since and as all sensible politicians across the political spectrum often remind us, the situation gets worse as time goes by. The idea that we can wait for the balance of power to change is frightening and it is a nightmare scenario for all Cypriots as this will no doubt lead to the Turkification of Cyprus.

Like I said to Piratis, if you have any idea of how we can go forward, let us have it and we can debate it.

Your version of the events leading up to the final draft of the Annan Plan is misleading. This has been gone over many times but I'm sure you are aware that as the final plan was being drafted the Turkish FM provided a list of “Final Points” to de Soto with the demand that the changes be made by the UN team. When Erdogan arrived in Bürgenstock, he was informed by Annan that nine of his eleven “points” had been agreed to by the UN team, and that the other two were virtually met. That this was the case became clear when Annan Plan IV was presented to the two sides and the Turkish side then triumphantly leaked the Turkish FM's proposals.

The delegations were then asked by Annan to provide him with their comments on Annan IV, which contained numerous amendments, including changes on core issues and reopening substantial trade-offs, previously agreed, within less than 24 hours so that he could finalise the Plan. The final plan, Annan Plan V, was tabled on 31 March. It met all of Turkey’s demands.

In effect, the Annan Plan accommodated and gave a legal framework to Turkey's occupation of the island. It was a gross betrayal of the Greek Cypriots' rights. It was asking the G/Cs in effect to commit national suicide. We have gone over this many times. You keep on flogging a dead horse...

As to where we go from here. The current UN process looks exhausted. Turkey has seen to that. Christofias has met a wall of belligerence. As EU citizens, G/C demands are not unreasonable - a federal unified state under the EU acquis with equal rights and sovereignty guaranteed by the EU. In exchange, Turkey gets a free path to its EU accession and the economic and diplomatic opportunities that a stable and peaceful Eastern Mediterranean will bring.

Instead, Turkey has been pursuing an out-dated and nonsensical policy of neo-Ottomanism and regional hegemony. This includes hanging on to Cyprus. What choices do we have? We must develop new means to keep the pressure on Turkey: diplomatic, economic and legal. We must open channels to sympathetic T/Cs who fear the threat of extinction. We must use the potential gas revenues as an incentive for a solution. Further, we must make sure that in the international arena the Cyprob is understood to be a case not of G'Cs vs T'Cs but of Cypriots against the Turkish occupation. Above all, we must never lose sight of the justness of our cause or the fact that Cypriots should be the ultimate arbiters of the island's destiny. No-one else.

bravo!, Hermes.

...which Annan plan did Clerides and Vassiliou negociate, what did they agree to, what did TPap say "no" to?

did anyone debate Annan V, was there time? Clearly, Turkey would not have approved, nor would they have supported an open and transparent negociation; their actions speak louder than words: the rest is propaganda, from which "Greeks" became the intransigent, Cypriots were dismissed, and "Turks" remained their victim.

[bill cobbett]

Hermes, thanks for the input. In 2004 the Annan Plan permitted 50K to remain. That is true, but you must take note of the children born to mixed marriages. Basically the settlers that would have remained were those that had married Cypriot ladies and had a family. These people (excuse my expression) do breed a lot. They are rather productive and while I can give you the benefit of the doubt about the present day numbers, we need to bear this in mind, plus the tens that come on a regular basis and stay as workers in the beginning but eventually remain for good.

The Annan Plan was debated a great deal here in this forum and elsewhere. One needs to take into account the period before the referendum when the late Papadopoulos won the elections on the promise that he will work hard to solve the Cyprob on the basis of the Annan plan. In the beginning, after he was voted in, he showed a lot of urgency towards this effect and went so far as to send an urgent message to the UN General Secretary (Dc 2003) asking him to arbitrate between the two sides. After this, he did his best to ensure that the Annan plan was as bad as it could get for our side (refused staunchly to ask for Karpasia etc, when it was there for the taking) so that he would ask for a huge "no", especially after the plan was daemonised by all those that did not want a solution based on BBF. He promised the GCs that a better plan was to come from the EU and thus there was no need to vote for the AP.

My problem with this is that the Cyprus problem remains unsolved and those who do not stomach BBF have nothing else to put forward that could be described as a feasible and practical way forward. We are hopelessly stuck in the impasse that has prevailed since and as all sensible politicians across the political spectrum often remind us, the situation gets worse as time goes by. The idea that we can wait for the balance of power to change is frightening and it is a nightmare scenario for all Cypriots as this will no doubt lead to the Turkification of Cyprus.

Like I said to Piratis, if you have any idea of how we can go forward, let us have it and we can debate it.

Your version of the events leading up to the final draft of the Annan Plan is misleading. This has been gone over many times but I'm sure you are aware that as the final plan was being drafted the Turkish FM provided a list of “Final Points” to de Soto with the demand that the changes be made by the UN team. When Erdogan arrived in Bürgenstock, he was informed by Annan that nine of his eleven “points” had been agreed to by the UN team, and that the other two were virtually met. That this was the case became clear when Annan Plan IV was presented to the two sides and the Turkish side then triumphantly leaked the Turkish FM's proposals.

The delegations were then asked by Annan to provide him with their comments on Annan IV, which contained numerous amendments, including changes on core issues and reopening substantial trade-offs, previously agreed, within less than 24 hours so that he could finalise the Plan. The final plan, Annan Plan V, was tabled on 31 March. It met all of Turkey’s demands.

In effect, the Annan Plan accommodated and gave a legal framework to Turkey's occupation of the island. It was a gross betrayal of the Greek Cypriots' rights. It was asking the G/Cs in effect to commit national suicide. We have gone over this many times. You keep on flogging a dead horse...

As to where we go from here. The current UN process looks exhausted. Turkey has seen to that. Christofias has met a wall of belligerence. As EU citizens, G/C demands are not unreasonable - a federal unified state under the EU acquis with equal rights and sovereignty guaranteed by the EU. In exchange, Turkey gets a free path to its EU accession and the economic and diplomatic opportunities that a stable and peaceful Eastern Mediterranean will bring.

Instead, Turkey has been pursuing an out-dated and nonsensical policy of neo-Ottomanism and regional hegemony. This includes hanging on to Cyprus. What choices do we have? We must develop new means to keep the pressure on Turkey: diplomatic, economic and legal. We must open channels to sympathetic T/Cs who fear the threat of extinction. We must use the potential gas revenues as an incentive for a solution. Further, we must make sure that in the international arena the Cyprob is understood to be a case not of G'Cs vs T'Cs but of Cypriots against the Turkish occupation. Above all, we must never lose sight of the justness of our cause or the fact that Cypriots should be the ultimate arbiters of the island's destiny. No-one else.

bravo!, Hermes.

...which Annan plan did Clerides and Vassiliou negociate, what did they agree to, what did TPap say "no" to?

did anyone debate Annan V, was there time? Clearly, Turkey would not have approved, nor would they have supported an open and transparent negociation; their actions speak louder than words: the rest is propaganda, from which "Greeks" became the intransigent, Cypriots were dismissed, and "Turks" remained their victim.

Briefly cos intend to get a bit pissed tonight ... Excellent posts boys from all three quoted above, including yours RW.

Now where's the Common Ground ? (that doesn't mean Compromises).

[Bananiot]

Flogging a dead horse ... nice one Hermes, but I am afraid it is you that embarks in this practice. You are still daemonising the Annan Plan 7 years after its massive rejection. There is no need to do it, I assure you, it is dead and gone. Your story about Erdogan is indicative of your bias. The Turkish Prime Minister had to sell the Plan to the all powerful Military and the National Council that staunchly opposed it and even worked out plans to overthrow the government had the plan gone through. Denktash himself worked in unison with them and he expressed his relieve with the following words as soon as the results of the referendum became known: "I thank God the GCs said no". For the first time in the history of the Cyprob we found ourselves on the same side as Denktash. The daemonisation of the plan undertook scientific proportions. The lies that were liberally spread were horrific, like the one that still haunts the forum members, that the plan gave continental shelf to the BSBs. Having said these, I do not for a minute claim that the plan was spotless. It left many things to be desired. Some of them could have been achieved with proper negotiation by our side, some perhaps couldn't.

The ongoing talks, are doomed, as you say but I am not sure from where you get your idea that the Turkish side is solely to blame. Christofias started these talks wrongly from the beginning, letting the Turkish side off lightly. Instead of taking the matter from where it was left in 2004, he negotiated an open agenda and naturally the Turkish side moved to maximalist positions because these are negotiations after all. The wise thing to do was to bring the Annan Plan onto the table and ask for improvements that could make it acceptable to the GC side. In doing so, he would have got the support of the International community and he would have really have the upper hand.

The talks are taking place to find a compromise solution because we all agreed that this is the best we can do. Yes, we are sitting on the same table with the occupier and seek not liberation but a compromise solution. I have no time for the light headed of the forum who are constantly asking Turkey to take her army and settlers and go home - problem solved. Remember, these are the same people that brought Turkey to Cyprus in the first place. Cheap rhetoric is the only struggle they are capable of putting up, but of course if we listen to them again, we would lose every thing at the end.

[Piratis]

How will we loose everything Bananiot? If we do not accept something like the Annan plan Turkey will invade again and take over the 100% of Cyprus? No, really. Please explain to me how we will lose everything. Can you? Lets hear your theory. Because 7 years after the Annan plan I didn't lose anything, and if more had listened to me and elected Papadopoulos in last elections even the international crisis would not have hit us as hard, but unfortunately in this case you convinced enough people that you were right, and Cyprus is suffering because of this.

I dread to think were Cyprus would be today had we accepted the Annan plan. The settlers would be roaming all over Cyprus and we would be paying for their welfare, while at the same time apart from our own governmental employees we would have to pay the TC ones as well, who are currently being paid by Turkey, but this wouldn't continue after the "solution". Our economy would have been destroyed, and if you think it is currently hard to agree on measures, then imagine how hard it would be with a small minority having veto powers. It would be downright impossible. Lets not even talk about compensations, where instead of Turkey paying them (as is the case now) they would mostly come out of our own pockets since Turkey would be off the hook. We would be bankrupt by now.

The economy is just one of the many things that would have gone very wrong with something like the Annan plan. For getting 7% of land back (and there was not even a warrantee that we would get even that) we would have officially divided Cyprus, destroyed our economy and given to Turkey the ability to control the whole of Cyprus.

Turks came to Cyprus in the first place (1570) and in all cases thereafter to serve their own interests on our expense. No Cypriot brought them here and by repeating the Turkish propaganda and lame excuses the only thing you manage is to reveal who you really are.

A real solution dear Bananiot has certain requirements. Things like democracy, freedom and human rights. These might be "cheap rhetoric" for somebody like you who does not value those principles, but for most of us they are essential. Today 2/3rd of Cyprus are free and democratic. If one day we manage to liberate the remaining 1/3rd great. If not, then 2/3rds of Cyprus free and 1/3rd of Cyprus illegally occupied is far better than 1/3rd of Cyprus legally occupied by Turks and the remaining 2/3rds also controlled by Turkey, with a system that is undemocratic and violates the human rights of the majority of the citizens.