Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexandros Lordos]

From what I have gathered so far, it seems that GCs focus all their efforts on achieving the "right of return" after a settlement, whereas GCs focus on achieving "bizonality". I am sure you all know what I mean by these terms.

By-passing for a moment the issue of whether "bizonality" and "right of return" are good things or not, right things or not, I wanted to pose the following question: Is it actually possible to simultaneously satisfy these two demands, or will we inevitably end up with a "GC popular-TC unpopular" plan or "TC popular-GC unpopular" plan?

What I am looking for in this thread, is proposals about how both these concerns can somehow be satisfied. Please avoid general discussions of the type "There should be no bizonality" or "Refugees shouldn't be allowed to return at all".

[Piratis]

It depends on what TCs mean by "bi-tonality". I am afraid that most of them want a part of Cyprus that will be their own part. |

However Cyprus should not by split between Greek Cyprus and Turkish Cyprus. Thats partition! Cyprus can be split into 2 major administrative regions - states. If the TCs want to live separate from the GCs they can all freely settle in the northern smaller state, which will make them the great majority there. This will in practice be a "bi-zonal", "bi-communal" federation, but without any racial discriminations.

I am against a TC state and a GC state. I am for a 2 state Cyprus were the TCs, for as long as they wish, can be concentrated (and therefore control) one of the two states.

[Dhavlos]

A bizonal cyprus, in the way envisaged in the annan plan will not satisfy the GC demands of Right of Return.

Right of Return will undermine the TC demand for a bizonal cyprus.

In my eyes, it is not compatible, unless TCs are willing to be part of a 'multizonal' cyprus. - You know what i mean alex.

They cannot both be satified....and im thinking, sadly, at the moment that the GCs demand is the one that is not going to be full-filled.

[Piratis]

TCs are about 150.000. If the north state is about 18%-20% of the ground and they all choose to live in that state then they would be the clear majority even if all refugees choose to return to their homes (which will not happen anyways).
So the result will be two states. One with GC majority and one with TC majority.

This way we can have what the TCs want (a state that they control because they are the majority) without the abuse of human rights and without racial discriminations.

The problem the way I see it is that some TCs (and Turkey) don't want one Cyprus for all Cypriots. They want 2 parts, one Turkish part and one Greek part. There is no federation that the rights of citizens in each state depend on the race of the citizen. All Cypriot citizens should be equal.

[Alexandros Lordos]

I see that for quite a few people, it is perfectly possible to combine bizonality and right of return. Could some of those who voted "Yes, absolutely" come out and explain their reasoning.

Personally, I am currently of the opinion that the two demands can only be stisified simultaneously to an extent, not absolutely. From the moment we start talking about a GC and a TC zone, we automatically make it very difficult - psycholgically if nothing else - for GCs to live in the north or for TCs to live in the south. And this difficutly would exist even if we follow Piratis' advice of letting everywhere live where he wishes, within the framework of two administrative zones. Even of people are legally allowed to return, that doesn't mean that they will feel comfortable and secure enough to return.

Some ways to make bizonality more palatable, imo, are the following:

a) Stop calling it the "Turkish Cypriot State" and "Greek Cypriot State". Use more neutral names, such as "Southern State" and "Northern State".

b) Make bilingualism a requirement in the public service of both constituent states, if not immediately then within 10 or 15 years.

c) If there is going to be an ethnically based limit to residence (such as the 33% of the Annan Plan), then this should apply for the state as a whole, and not for individual villages. In this way, if a village community wishes to return en masse, then they will be able to. This will mean ofcourse that we will have some GC mayors in the north, for particular communities, but I don't see that as violating bizonality.

d) Give total autonomy over education, to all GCs in the north and to all TCs in the south. Only limitation should be that both languages must be taught in every school, and that the same version of recent Cypriot history be taught everywhere.

e) In each community/town, there should be a quota for the police, so that for instance if the community is 40% GC, 60% TC, then policemen of the community should also be 40% GC, 60% TC.

How does all this sound?

[Dhavlos]

Those proposals sound good alex, it does sound reasonable,

but why not make lots of areas, so groups of villages/towns can act as municipalities, with lots of power, almost like semi states. Then Right of Return can be satisfied, as wel as make the 'TC States' more TC because there would be fewer GCs in each one. Maybe 10 or so administrative areas which are drawn around each ethnic group, could help aleviate the problem of 'percentages'.

[Piratis]

a) Stop calling it the "Turkish Cypriot State" and "Greek Cypriot State". Use more neutral names, such as "Southern State" and "Northern State".

I 100% agree with this. This is what I have actually proposed some time ago.

b) Make bilingualism a requirement in the public service of both constituent states, if not immediately then within 10 or 15 years.

This is correct. I believe TCs would insist on this if we had a unitary state where they would be the 18%. I think it is double standards to say that now the minority of GCs in the northern state should not have Greek as an official language in their state.

c) If there is going to be an ethnically based limit to residence (such as the 33% of the Annan Plan), then this should apply for the state as a whole, and not for individual villages.

I am against any kind of such permanent limits. I think we should have long transitional periods (20-30 years) after which there will be no kind of restrictions based on race.

d) Give total autonomy over education, to all GCs in the north and to all TCs in the south. Only limitation should be that both languages must be taught in every school, and that the same version of recent Cypriot history be taught everywhere.

I agree with this. What about other parts of history. E.g. the wars between Greece and Turkey? Don't you think we need to agree something with that as well?

e) In each community/town, there should be a quota for the police, so that for instance if the community is 40% GC, 60% TC, then policemen of the community should also be 40% GC, 60% TC.

I agree. Quotas should be used extensively, at least in the first years, to guarantee that there is a fair distribution between communities.

but why not make lots of areas

This would make things easier. However I doubt many TCs will accept it.

[Alexandros Lordos]

I am against any kind of such permanent limits. I think we should have long transitional periods (20-30 years) after which there will be no kind of restrictions based on race.

I can certainly understand where you are coming from. A 21st century state where civil rights are affected by ethnic origin would be an anomaly indeed.

On the other hand, I don't think the TCs would be willing to sign up in advance a plan that, 20-30 years in the future, "might render them a helpless minority in the hands of nationalistic GCs". This is simply the way their cultural and psychological make-up is at the moment.

It seems to me that for this reason it would be very difficult to dislodge from a future peace plan:

a) The requirement that there should be a restriction to residence based on ethnic origin.
b) The demand that election for the federal senate is done separately, so that we always have 24 GC and 24 TC senators.

One possible resolution of this deadlock might be to insitute planned referenda for the future, whereby GCs and TCs will be called upon to decide whether ethnic distinctions need to continue affecting civil rights. If both communities vote to abolish such distinctions, then all talk of "people of Greek ethnic origin" and "people of Turkish ethnic origin" will lose all political meaning, and instead we will simply have residents of the northern and residents of the southern constituent state. All Cypriots would be free to reside in either state, and all their political rights would be exercised at their place of permanent residence.

If one of the two communities votes to maintain ethnic distinctions, then the matter will be deferred for yet another decade, after which time a new referendum will take place - and so on. Eventually, I believe, the fears of the past will subside, most people will become steeped in European humanistic values, and the insecurity that defines the current choices of TCs on this matter will no longer play a role. So it is only a matter of time before the referenda are won.

[cypezokyli]

alexandre i agree with your proposals.

but up to now we are discussing only inbetween us.

let s wait for some answers from our partners.

[Piratis]

On the other hand, I don't think the TCs would be willing to sign up in advance a plan that, 20-30 years in the future, "might render them a helpless minority in the hands of nationalistic GCs". This is simply the way their cultural and psychological make-up is at the moment.

There are many other ways to guarantee that TCs will not become a "helpless minority" and strict enforcement of human rights is actually one of them. For me this is an excuse from those TCs that don't want a true unification.

I believe we should know were the limits are. Solution should mean a true unification. A closing of the Cyprus problem without a true solution it is worst than no solution.

If one of the two communities votes to maintain ethnic distinctions, then the matter will be deferred for yet another decade

I would agree for this if the TCs would also have some racist discriminations against them. If they can only only gain from such racist discriminations then why would they ever vote to abolish them?