Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

No you defend Greece all the time, and whenever I try to criticize Greek human right violations you always bring Turkey in, as if it is your national duty to defend Greece.

You brought Turkey in from the very beginning:

Look who is giving Turkey lessons in human rights.

This was not a thread criticizing Greece over an incident. It was a thread comparing Turkey with Greece. If you just wanted to criticize Greece then I don't see what was the need for the first sentence of yours.

[akiner]

akiner,

with all due respect I think I am breaking forum rules by replying to posts in turkish. But I just want to say one thing.

I think you are confusing the PKK and the kurdish people. The PKK are terrorists which deserve no mercy, the kurdish people are citizens of the Turkish Republic with a right for self determination. You cannot compare the crimes committed against Turkish Citizens by the PKK, a terroris organization, with crimes commited against Turkish Citizens of kurdish origing by the Turkish Security forces, who are in fact supposed to protect tthem. Terrorists commit crimes, and the role of the security forces is to stop those crimes, not commite other crimes against people whose only guilt is that they are of the same ethnicity with those terrorists.

bg_turk,
You are missing an important point that all those kurds u mentioned on your previous post were supporters/members of Pkk so what are u expecting from security forces?!

You claimed the forces put pressure on these ppl because of only one reason that they are kurd!!!! Can u post here a single source which says about systematic act like that carries out on kurd civilians (i dont mean the members/supporters of pkk so i am not interested pointless news about what happend ppk supporter on their protesting action)

Ofcourse there should be some misunderstandings and some mistakes could occur but u cant say that it is a systematic plan runs by the government or officals( as u can remember police shoted to death a brazilian worker in england, can u say that it happened because he was brazilian?)

akiner, you keep violating the forum rules my friend. Please show some respect to the rest of us and post in English or I am afraid you will be banned in the end.

i dont care what rights you have, because as i understand forum rules is too speak in english, i suggest you do so, so the rest of us can understand what your trying to express. If you choose to continue then i will contact the forum moderator.

Yes you are right my fellas the one who is cheating the code has no right and must wait the punishment...
And this rule is a simple way of action in cyber community or a state

so stop useless post which says there is no humanrights on Turkey while you are approving there should be a punishment a breaker deserves, else let me continue in turkish:)

[bg_turk]

bg_turk,
You are missing an important point that all those kurds u mentioned on your previous post were supporters/members of Pkk so what are u expecting from security forces?!

You claimed the forces put pressure on these ppl because of only one reason that they are kurd!!!! Can u post here a single source which says about systematic act like that carries out on kurd civilians (i dont mean the members/supporters of pkk so i am not interested pointless news about what happend ppk supporter on their protesting action)

Ofcourse there should be some misunderstandings and some mistakes could occur but u cant say that it is a systematic plan runs by the government or officals( as u can remember police shoted to death a brazilian worker in england, can u say that it happened because he was brazilian?)

Here you have an extrajudicial killing of a pre-teen, Uğur Kaymaz, accused of being a terrorist . How can a 12 year old child be a terrorist?

http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=144822
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4285967.stm

I hope to see the day when the perpetrators of this horrific act will be brought to justice. They are well known members of the security forces, why doesn't the Turkish State bring them to justice. A 12 year old citizen of the Turkish Republic has been killed by those forces that are supposed to protect him!

For once forget your nationality, and imagine you are a kurd living in Turkey. If we fail to condemn horrific "ethnic" crimes like this, call the victims terrorists, and do not persecute people responsible for them, what hope is there for peaceful coexistence between ordinary turks and kurds? Meanwhile the people, who killed this child, are still roaming freely in the South East as representatives of the Turkish State and kill in your name, in the name of all Turkish citizens. All Turkish citizens must stand up and loudly proclaim to these people - "Not in our name!".

[bg_turk]

No you defend Greece all the time, and whenever I try to criticize Greek human right violations you always bring Turkey in, as if it is your national duty to defend Greece.

You brought Turkey in from the very beginning:

Look who is giving Turkey lessons in human rights.

This was not a thread criticizing Greece over an incident. It was a thread comparing Turkey with Greece. If you just wanted to criticize Greece then I don't see what was the need for the first sentence of yours.

What I meany was that Greece did not have the moral hight ground to criticize other countries, be it Turkey, or any other. As you yourself said human rights are quite complex, there are areas in which Greece is better, areas in which Turkey is better, areas which are not comparable, but in terms of minority rights and treatment of foreigners Greece definitely cannot give lessons to Turkey.

[Piratis]

bg_turk, what you say would be right if Greece was trying to give lessons regarding human rights to Sweden, Denmark etc.

However I doubt there is even one area of human rights that Turkey is better, or even as good as Greece.

In terms of minority rights, Turkey treats its minorities in a much worst way. Greece doesn't bomb the villages of the minorities, it doesn't fill the jails with political prisoners etc.

Maybe in Greece the muslims are not officially recognized as Turks, because Greece is afraid that Turks there might try to do what they did in Cyprus. I understand you can criticize this policy, but at the same time this policy is much better than killing and sending to jail people which is what Turkey does.

In terms of foreigners, again Turkey treats them in way worst ways. Don't forget that most asylum seekers in Greece are coming from Turkey. Why they do not ask for asylum in Turkey??

So I never claimed that Greece is perfect. I said that Greece is much better from Turkey which is the truth.

[bg_turk]

Piratis,

I am tired of these pointless disputes - I am a turk therefore I should defend Turkey, I am a greek therefore I should defend Greece - there is no end in sight. So please accept a few facts, and please please stop your antiturkish propaganda. Turkey no longer bobms kurdish villages in the south, this is a thing of the past. But if you want to emphasize the past, Greece ethnically cleansed my relative from northern Greece, it leveled to the ground all bulgarian and turkish villages in Northern Greece. In one bulgarian villages even the church was not spared. And this country today cannot arrogantly claim that it upholds minority rights highly and wants to give lessons in minority rights to any country, let aloneTurkey.
NO WAY!
Both Bulgaria and Turkey now have minority broadcasts on national tv, both countries have significant representation of minorities in the political system, both countries accept the existence of those minorities , there is hardly any economic discrimanation against these minorities. Greece has none of these. You even banned some turkish womens organization for having turkish in its name. I am currenly a member of an Organization for Turkish Dances and Songs in Bulgaria, you would even ban this! How can Greece give any lessons to any other country? Greece is in desperate need for lessons herself, how willing she is to accept them is of course a completely different matter.

And besides your comparison of Cyprus and Greece is misleading. Turks in Cyprus are not a minority, they are cofounder of the republic.

[bg_turk]

In terms of foreigners, again Turkey treats them in way worst ways. Don't forget that most asylum seekers in Greece are coming from Turkey. Why they do not ask for asylum in Turkey??

We both know why this is - economic reasons. Asylum seekers prefer greece for its wealth. And besides there are no prison camps for asylum seekers in Turkey, like in Greece.

[akiner]

bg_turk,
Still i cant see your point

bg_turk wrote:
Here you have an extrajudicial killing of a pre-teen, Uğur Kaymaz, accused of being a terrorist . How can a 12 year old child be a terrorist?

http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=144822
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4285967.stm

I hope to see the day when the perpetrators of this horrific act will be brought to justice. They are well known members of the security forces, why doesn't the Turkish State bring them to justice. A 12 year old citizen of the Turkish Republic has been killed by those forces that are supposed to protect him!

I dont think we can classify who is terrorist and who is not regarding induvials' age, otherwise there wouldnt be 6 year-old suicide bombers on Afghanistan..(look at the photo, dont u think he has a potential?Today just a supporter of The Terrorist, tomorrow will be the actmaker)

I hope to see the day when the perpetrators of this horrific act will be brought to justice. They are well known members of the security forces, why doesn't the Turkish State bring them to justice. A 12 year old citizen of the Turkish Republic has been killed by those forces that are supposed to protect him!
.......
Meanwhile the people, who killed this child, are still roaming freely in the South East as representatives of the Turkish State and kill in your name, in the name of all Turkish citizens. All Turkish citizens must stand up and loudly proclaim to these people - "Not in our name!".

i dont know that boy you are talking about was a terrorsit or not but i wrote before just copy/pasting
"Ofcourse there should be some misunderstandings and some mistakes could occur but u cant say that it is a systematic plan runs by the government or officals( as u can remember police shoted to death a brazilian worker in england, can u say that it happened because he was brazilian?)"
So What they sent the policemen to jail after he killed a brazilian worker because of a false hypothesis on the day of London bombing???

It is easy for ppl who never met any terrorist act directly and saying you should do that ,u should not do this

For once forget your nationality, and imagine you are a kurd living in Turkey. If we fail to condemn horrific "ethnic" crimes like this, call the victims terrorists, and do not persecute people responsible for them, what hope is there for peaceful coexistence between ordinary turks and kurds?

The truth is that the pure turks in middle asia, others just mixed blood, so my family also has his share from that aspect...I am the remnant of Tatars and Georgians, FOR ONCE assume that what if, these ethnic groups start a policy to raise their population controlless to create misery and then according that restrain claim their own specialrights/states,what should turkey do?
What should her response be like when Avşars demand their own region around Antalya-Isparta or Yoruk wants spesific rights to use some parts of the country to continue their nomadic lifestyle?!

bg_turk pls dont reply this as repeating what u have said or letting me to re-answer what i already have so if you dont have new arguments to say this discussion is over for me
Best Wishes

[bg_turk]

The Brazilian was killed in a train packed with people because he could have detonated a bomb, this child was killed at his home in front of his mothers eyes and he posed no direct or perceivable threat to his surroundings and to the lifes of other civilians at that moment.

This is not a mistake, it is extrajudicial killing. There are always excuses for mistakes, what is the excuse for killing this child?

[akiner]

that is what you are seeking,


Olay yerinde çeşitli çaplarda, 34'ü polislere ait silahlardan olmak üzere 47 boş kovanla mermi çekirdeği bulunduğu, Geriye kalan 13 mermi içinse Adli Tıp Kurumunun raporunda olay yerinde bulunan 13 Kalaşnikof marka mermiden sekizinin Uğur, beşinin ise Ahmet Kaymaz'ın yanında bulunan silahtan atıldığı, cesetlerin ellerinde de 'atış artığı' saptandığı belirtildi. Yani tetiği çeken elde bulunun ve kanuni delil olarak kabul edilen ateş ettiğine dair deliller bulundu. Bunu hiç dile getirme gereği duyulmadı.

source http://www.hakimiyetimilliye.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=8637

maybe he did not(i doubt) but his father tried to resist
http://www.sabah.com.tr/2004/12/29/gun97.html