Cyprus-Forum.com

[yialousa1971]

I cannot see how you can separate Church and State when they are basically the same body by different names. Both give us laws and determine how we live. If you are an atheist you naturally look more to the State. Unless, you are also an anarchist.

The problem is how much belief you place in either Religion or State. Outlawing either is admittance of a preference for the native, savage state of mind - or total free will. Can't decide which...

I don't see how the Church and the State are the same body. Don't we have democracy and not theocracy? In a democratic state as a citizen I have a say and I am entitled to certain freedoms. The Church is a foreign body to me. I don't have a say in what the Church is doing and I don't want the Church to have a say in anything affecting my life.

But I do not want to outlaw the Church. You are free to abide by the rules of the Church if you so wish.

Burn in hell you heathen.

[GreekIslandGirl]

I cannot see how you can separate Church and State when they are basically the same body by different names. Both give us laws and determine how we live. If you are an atheist you naturally look more to the State. Unless, you are also an anarchist.

The problem is how much belief you place in either Religion or State. Outlawing either is admittance of a preference for the native, savage state of mind - or total free will. Can't decide which...

I don't see how the Church and the State are the same body. Don't we have democracy and not theocracy? In a democratic state as a citizen I have a say and I am entitled to certain freedoms. The Church is a foreign body to me. I don't have a say in what the Church is doing and I don't want the Church to have a say in anything affecting my life.

But I do not want to outlaw the Church. You are free to abide by the rules of the Church if you so wish.

Now you simply call your faith 'democracy'. What you say about the 'state' reflects your 'belief' in the 'state' - much like a religious believer could say about their faith in a god. In other words, you call yourself a 'citizen' [sic] instead of a 'believer'. You mention you have 'certain freedoms' as a 'citizen' - yet a believer is also told he has 'free will' :- these are similar concepts, the giving of some 'responsibility'.

As I said, 'religion' and the 'state' are the same things by different names. We are merely faithful followers of one or other (or both - or neither?).

[aikhme]

It is incredibly fatuous to muddle the delineation between Religion (better to use this term in lieu of Church) and State.

All believers and non believers are citizens, whether they like it or not. The State is an entity which bounds ALL into one cohesive society, which is bound by laws and it is this State which should provide all mechanism and mechanisation for this society to function and prosper accordingly by providing infrastructure, a legal system, education, health and law and order. Everyone is bound by it, including the anarchists who may prefer to derail it.

Religion is something entirely different, and cannot be confused with the daily running of society as a whole. Not everyone is a member of any religion but they are citizens bound to the same State authority and legal system. Naturally, people should be free to practice any religion, but it is no substitute to the State, regardless of how some religious fanatics view it. Remove the State, then in these times, we will have anarchy, and no political authority or structure. Many anarchists also recognise this, and henceforth only call themselves anarchists because they merely detest the political authority associated with the State. They are anti authoritarian by nature.

In Cyprus, there truly is a need to delineate between Church and State. It would also be good if the Church paid some tax in accordance with Cypriot tax laws, especially since they do run many lucrative businesses in Cyprus. Their charitable sections can be separated and be exempt from taxation as should all charities.

Perhaps The Cyprus Government, whilst Christofias is still in power can look at this. A good example would be the US Constitution and Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

[supporttheunderdog]

No they are not and each time you repeat this nonsence you show yourself be a confused person if you cannot recognise they are distinct organisations.

The Church is a religeous organisation whose job is to promote belief in some sort of being who we must worship: as a side effect the particular version of the hebrew/christian/moslem god is said to have produced some laws for us to live by.

Now If the church wishes to peddle certain religeous views then fine, but that is not the job of the state, It may be that the Church and state may have a commonality of views on some mters, ie proscriptions against murder and/or theft but that does not make them the same.

My own theory is that, as with lightening gods and sun gods etc, and the attributes they have as gods of natural things, the attribute of god as a law giver have been created by man to give a higher moral authority to these laws, and to assist in promoting thought control - the divine right of rulers to make laws.

One of the political concerns about non-conformism / hetrodoxy was that by allowing people to have their own views about god they might get new views about government so the state has often had an interest in siding with the Church.

I do not have to believe in the existence of the state in the same way as one must beleive in the existence of a god: further I do not have to worship the state or any head of state (except of course under a facist system).

[GreekIslandGirl]

They fulfill the same function. They get us through life in an orderly fashion and collect some money. And there are probably as many variations of methods of governing a state as there are religions. People struggle/fight to live under the one they 'believe' in most heartily. So where is the difference between 'State' as governor of our lives and 'Religion' as governor of our lives?

'Power to the people, all the people and especially the poor majority' ... was the guiding principle behind Athenian democracy. And what did Jesus preach? Something about the meek ...

[aikhme]

Religion and State do not fulfill the same function, and such an assertion is bereft of all logic.

State, at least as we have come to take for granted, is all encompassing. Religions are not all encompassing. Both have separate roles, one spiritual, and the other to provide the daily mechanisations for an entire nation of people. The State is expected to act with sovereign reverence for all people, while religion does not have sovereign authority over any person or citizen.

'Power to the people, all the people and especially the poor majority' ... was the guiding principle behind Athenian democracy. And what did Jesus preach? Something about the meek ...

This is more correct, even though it appears to be contradictory to your vacuous assertion.

Power to all the people, as can only be achieved in a democratic State. The State represents all the people, and legislates for all the people. Religions do not, unless in Iran or such like....

[GreekIslandGirl]

Religion and State do not fulfill the same function, and such an assertion is bereft of all logic.

State, at least as we have come to take for granted, is all encompassing. Religions are not all encompassing. Both have separate roles, one spiritual, and the other to provide the daily mechanisations for an entire nation of people. The State is expected to act with sovereign reverence for all people, while religion does not have sovereign authority over any person or citizen.

'Power to the people, all the people and especially the poor majority' ... was the guiding principle behind Athenian democracy. And what did Jesus preach? Something about the meek ...

This is more correct, even though it appears to be contradictory to your vacuous assertion.

Power to all the people, as can only be achieved in a democratic State. The State represents all the people, and legislates for all the people. Religions do not, unless in Iran or such like....

Welcome to the forum, aikhme, and it's good to see you entering in the spirit of debate.

If you think my statement was 'bereft of logic', then it remains with you to prove how different are the functions of State and Religion. Thus far, you have only demonstrated how similar their ideals happen to be. I disagree with you that Religion is not 'all encompassing' just because you assign it the sole function of 'spiritual'. There is nothing that the State can provide that cannot also be done according to doctrines. Perhaps you are not familiar with the teachings of Jesus to finish off the similarity I asserted, but he too was on the side of the 'poor majority' - not unlike the ideals of democracy. Besides, God gave power to the people to govern themselves; isn't this modus operandi central to democracies too?

[Get Real!]

...prove how different are the functions of State and Religion.

For starters, religion welcomes new recruits with open arms but the state hates them!

[supporttheunderdog]

Religion and State do not fulfill the same function, and such an assertion is bereft of all logic.

State, at least as we have come to take for granted, is all encompassing. Religions are not all encompassing. Both have separate roles, one spiritual, and the other to provide the daily mechanisations for an entire nation of people. The State is expected to act with sovereign reverence for all people, while religion does not have sovereign authority over any person or citizen.

'Power to the people, all the people and especially the poor majority' ... was the guiding principle behind Athenian democracy. And what did Jesus preach? Something about the meek ...

This is more correct, even though it appears to be contradictory to your vacuous assertion.

Power to all the people, as can only be achieved in a democratic State. The State represents all the people, and legislates for all the people. Religions do not, unless in Iran or such like....

Welcome to the forum, aikhme, and it's good to see you entering in the spirit of debate.

If you think my statement was 'bereft of logic', then it remains with you to prove how different are the functions of State and Religion. Thus far, you have only demonstrated how similar their ideals happen to be. I disagree with you that Religion is not 'all encompassing' just because you assign it the sole function of 'spiritual'. There is nothing that the State can provide that cannot also be done according to doctrines. Perhaps you are not familiar with the teachings of Jesus to finish off the similarity I asserted, but he too was on the side of the 'poor majority' - not unlike the ideals of democracy. Besides, God gave power to the people to govern themselves; isn't this modus operandi central to democracies too?

Religion is normally about the relationship between man and his god or gods, normally wrapped up with a reward of an eternal after-life in a heaven of some sort through following the system of belief, and in certain extreme protestant sects even that is uncertain, with an elect of only say 144.000. Religions may promote some moral values as an aid to finding god and getting into heaven, but the church does not for example legislate that in a built up area thou shalt not exceed 50 km/h. For its part the state may (inter alia) tell us thou shalt not kill but principally it gives us a lot of otherlaws and runa things so we can all get along togther as best we can on earth, whwther we belive in any god or gods or not: the state should not and normally does not (except in theocracies like Iran) tell us how we should worship god and find our way to heaven.

If you do not understand the very differnt objectives of the two, then Girl are you loosing it.

[supporttheunderdog]

...prove how different are the functions of State and Religion.

For starters, religion welcomes new recruits with open arms but the state hates them!

Unless they are Russian Millionairs