Cyprus-Forum.com

[GreekIslandGirl]

I cannot see how you can separate Church and State when they are basically the same body by different names. Both give us laws and determine how we live. If you are an atheist you naturally look more to the State. Unless, you are also an anarchist.

The problem is how much belief you place in either Religion or State. Outlawing either is admittance of a preference for the native, savage state of mind - or total free will. Can't decide which...

[supporttheunderdog]

a country with more clearly delineated laws regarding "separation of church and state" and the establishment of religion is a more suitable place for you?

That is the way it should be in Cyprus.

No, we'll keep things the way they are now. Otherwise the KEO brewery will have to close.

Would you miss it?

[supporttheunderdog]

I cannot see how you can separate Church and State when they are basically the same body by different names. Both give us laws and determine how we live. If you are an atheist you naturally look more to the State. Unless, you are also an anarchist.

The problem is how much belief you place in either Religion or State. Outlawing either is admittance of a preference for the native, savage state of mind - or total free will. Can't decide which...

That is a presumptious point of view because it relaies on the presumption (a) that there is a god/there are gods and (b) the theology/philosphy of the church is correct about the nature of god, etc/.

Now religion principally arose out of early man trying to find a way to explain the workings of the world, in the absence of scientific knowledge: early government latched on to religion to use the alleged power of the gods (or god) to enforce their rule: divine right of kings, etc, leading ultimately to the rule of the Mullahs in Iran, who stifle political debate by declaring critics of the Government to be enemies of god. However by and large man has made god or gods in his image, and modified the image to suit the times: this how we have moved from a polytheistic state with gods of natural phenemenon to a somewhat ill defined supreme being, where even the adherents of two branches of the same faith will sometimes quite happily kill each other because of differences in their opinions about god. Pathetic arn't they.

However if man has created god or the gods, one logical extension of this is that laws are also man made, therefore we do not need the Church to tell us how to live, particularly if we do not share their view about god.

[kurupetos]

a country with more clearly delineated laws regarding "separation of church and state" and the establishment of religion is a more suitable place for you?

That is the way it should be in Cyprus.

No, we'll keep things the way they are now. Otherwise the KEO brewery will have to close.

Would you miss it?

Nope, but CBBB would.

[Mikiko]

They will see you that you have been sent to dehellenise the island in order to gift the island to Turkey If you try to make any change in reliogions Even though your motives will be totally different . The church is always watching at the background for these matters about Greek Orthodox religion the Greek language etc and this is their reluctance also to touch or respect our own flag. They will see you that you have been sent by our enemies to de hellenise the island so you will be labeled as a Traitor. For some other extremes If you are an Atheist then you are a Turk dont be suprised to hear this also.

I belive everyone should be Free to decide without the state Control . The most problems begin when the state try to dictate at the expense of personal choice . The same mistakes make also parents when they dictate what their children to do or what career to follow. This is very common mistake.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Unless you are a hermit or living on your own island - you are dictated to by either Church or State. The pseudo-intellectuals protest they are not dictated to by either, but would volunteer some respect for State authority on the understanding that this is their (higher) choice ... but as 'stud' has inadvertently demonstrated, with an attempt at a reply above, most are pretty much mixed up.

It remains, therefore, that there is no discernible difference between State and Church. Both assigned with the job of making us obedient servants.

[supporttheunderdog]

Mikiko The traitors in Cyprus are the Enosis supporters who plainly have not learnt the lessons of the past, namely that since the mid 1950's Turkey has been against Enosis and will AND HAS taken steps to stop it. Turkey nearly invaded in 1964, possibly again after that and did invade in 1974 when the Greek, Junta with the assistance of traitors to the Republic from EOKA B etc, as big Mak put it, invaded Cyprus to impose Enosis by Force. Thanks to good Cypriot Patriots the coup was thwarted, but Turkey then invaded, probably in accordance with plans prepared as far back as 1964, but under circumstances with the Greek Junta intervention and the coup that no one could then prevent.

The Enosis lovers do not see it like that - they still have their heads in the sand.

Further the way the Enosis lovers promote Greece over an independant Cyprus and the way that they denigreate people who belive in an independant Cyprus in my view sometimes comes close showing contempt towards the Cyprus and the Cypriot people.

The Church itself should stand for an independant Cyprus - after all the Curch itself is anautocephalous church within the communion of Orthodox Christianity, and has been for some 1400 years longer than the Church of Greece. Just as the Cyprus Church within the orthodox community as a whole is independant of Greece so I think Cyprus should be independant of Greece,.

The Orthodox church organisation centred on Constantinople is itself a probably largley political construct of the 4th century, due to the prominence of Constantinople as the capital of the eastern Roman Empire, while to be true to aplistic sucessesion the langauge of the Church should probably be Aramaic, the language of Christ and the Apostles.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Mikiko The traitors in Cyprus are the Enosis supporters ...

Thou fitful fevered remnant of colonialist britishness ... stuck in the 50's! Go forth. Or, just GO!

[supporttheunderdog]

Unless you are a hermit or living on your own island - you are dictated to by either Church or State. The pseudo-intellectuals protest they are not dictated to by either, but would volunteer some respect for State authority on the understanding that this is their (higher) choice ... but as 'stud' has inadvertently demonstrated, with an attempt at a reply above, most are pretty much mixed up.

It remains, therefore, that there is no discernible difference between State and Church. Both assigned with the job of making us obedient servants.

Again I think you are being presumptious. The Church may seek to do what the state does but it does not make them the same. In that respect made little to no mention of the state in my post, intentionally so, since I have no issue with the state setting reasonable law, whereas I think that religion is matter of personal choice about belief in a god in which the state has no part in telling us what to think. Now I am quite happy to recognise the jurisdiction of the state over me but not the Church - that is because I do not accept that any religion's Ideas about god are necasarily sound and I consider that as organisations no religeous body can tell me what to believe.

My position was and remains that as a matter of choice one can chose to accept or reject the teachings of the Church as one sees fit according to ones' own view of whether or not one shares their view of god as a divine being who has a interest in how we live our lives and in setting rules in how we live them . If anything following the precepts of the Church represent a higher moral choice since it recognises there is a supreme being of some sort who we owe a duty to obey. If however one does not accept that is the correct nature of god (or indeed if there is a god) then it also follows there can be no religeous authourity for the laws the Church promotes: That is not to say that the ten commndmants and other suggestions are not (save for the parts about god) very good rules to follow.

I do however recognise the need for a state of some sort because we need a structure run on commonly agreed moral principals based upon fairness and equality before the law for regulating society, of which we are all part, for the good of all, and some of the concepts contained within EG the ten commandments, are a good starting point. They do not however need god to make them valid.

Once one is confuses church and state one is very much into thought control: that way liesthe ultimate madness of modern day Iran.

[yialousa1971]

Mikiko The traitors in Cyprus are the Enosis supporters ...

Thou fitful fevered remnant of colonialist britishness ... stuck in the 50's! Go forth. Or, just GO!

It must go.