GreekIslandGirl wrote:aikhme wrote:Religion and State do not fulfill the same function, and such an assertion is bereft of all logic.
State, at least as we have come to take for granted, is all encompassing. Religions are not all encompassing. Both have separate roles, one spiritual, and the other to provide the daily mechanisations for an entire nation of people. The State is expected to act with sovereign reverence for
all people, while religion does not have sovereign authority over any person or citizen.
'Power to the people, all the people and especially the poor majority' ... was the guiding principle behind Athenian democracy. And what did Jesus preach? Something about the meek ...
This is more correct, even though it appears to be contradictory to your vacuous assertion.
Power to
all the people, as can only be achieved in a democratic State. The State represents
all the people, and legislates for
all the people. Religions do not, unless in Iran or such like....
Welcome to the forum, aikhme, and it's good to see you entering in the spirit of debate.
If you think my statement was 'bereft of logic', then it remains with you to prove how different are the functions of State and Religion. Thus far, you have only demonstrated how similar their
ideals happen to be. I disagree with you that Religion is not 'all encompassing' just because you assign it
the sole function of 'spiritual'. There is nothing that the State can provide that cannot also be done according to doctrines. Perhaps you are not familiar with the teachings of Jesus to finish off the similarity I asserted, but he too was on the side of the 'poor majority' - not unlike the ideals of democracy. Besides, God gave power to the people to govern themselves; isn't this
modus operandi central to democracies too?
Thank you for your warm welcome. It's good to see there are intelligent people with whom I can debate with.
Yes I do think your statement is bereft of logic, but I do not think that you are. Nevertheless, I believe it is you telling us how similar the functions of Religion and State are, and so it is only right that
you prove your very argument. A difficult task I will admit and so I will not hold you to it because this debate is very
subjective and we can go on all day without making any headway.
How can you argue that Religion is all encompassing? Can religion, a certain kind of religion, speak for other denominations? Can it speak for those that do not believe? Can religion provide a Bill of Rights for all citizens? Obviously it can't and so it does not speak for everyone or enforce any dogmas or doctrines on an entire nation. The State can and does when it legislates that you must pay your taxes, and abide by certain rules and laws. If you do not, then the legal apparatus of the State will eventually catch up with you. Religions can't do that, at least not in the EU or other Western Democracies.
I did not assign Religion with only one sole function. Spirituality is just one aspect of it. Providing a set of morals can be another aspect. But religions are not required as a moral compass today. We do not have religious feudalism anymore. The State however is NOT a doctrine or a dogma. It is a constitutional, legal and judicial apparatus among other things. You can choose to "not believe" in it if you wish, even disobey the apparatus by breaking some laws, but you will end up in some strife. Religions will only promise you eternal damnation.
Yes, I am familiar with the teachings of Jesus Christ. He was a great guy and his teachings are everything you may wish to portray, and much more. In his eyes, all man was equal. That includes both rich and poor. He was against injustice, and was the only true Communist as was Buddha. According to their teachings, we are
all equal. And according to our Western Democracies, all man is supposed to be equal according to the legal and social apparatus of the State. According to religion, all man are supposed to be equal according to their tenets. Unfortunately for States and Religions,
some men are more equal than others. Money is power, and power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. And the same can be said of any Democracy today, and even more so to the Athenian Democracy you mention. After all, all are equal but some are more equal than others, especially if you were a slave or servant. Now I wonder if Jesus looks upon the House of God and sees exactly what he had in mind. My guess is that he does not. Central to his teachings was that the spirit of God can be found within oneself, and so your home and your body can be His temple.
Crime and punishment, or sin and repentance - forgiveness or acquittal, damnation or indictment - state your preference, but they are not the same modus operandi.
Anyway, I have wasted enough time on this forum this afternoon. I may speak to you again, or I may not.
Have a lovely evening.