kingsaxon wrote:Piratis wrote:kingsaxon wrote:historically-speaking there was an indigenous population on the island before any of the ethnicities mentioned above. This is what I would consider Cypriots who then by way of culture went through various stages of development, most notably Hellenism being the strongest influence. One thing for certain is we are only Greek by political nationalization. Cypriots have a strong sense of their own identity and not one of my family will tell you that they have strong affinity with Greece. And yes we could all be part Arab, Egyptian, Phoenician, Hittite, Frankish, Templar, Scottish (anyone noticed the red-haired scottish looking Cypriot?), Ottoman. But these definition belong to culturally defined groups and not strictly ethnic. So we much re-evaluate the question which should be one of inclusion. Is this an ethnic-nationalist debate or a cultural-nationalist one? If it is about the preservation of the unique and wonderful Cypriot culture, I think the latter is the best choice. Unless of course, your a fascist.
I myself am an English-Cypriot so I know where I stand. Who would deny my what I believe to be my heritage.
If the Greeks who came to Cyprus at about 1500BC are not indigenous to Cyprus, then the English (Angles) who went to Britain at about 500AD, could not possibly be indigenous to Britain. Not only the English went to Britain far later than Greeks came to Cyprus, but in Britain there are human settlements going back 30.000 years, as opposed to 10.000 years in Cyprus. (and the same kind of mixing happened in Britain as well - indigenous people, Celts, Romans, Vikings, Anglo-Saxons, French and more recently blacks, asians and everything else imaginable)
And then you come here to claim that you are
English-Cypriot (possibly with only one, or even none, of your parents being English), and at the same time you imply that we can not be Greek-Cypriots because that would be "fascist"? I hope you realize how arrogant your position is.
I don't know you and your family, but I can tell you that the vast majority of Greek Cypriots voted for enosis in 1950, while more recently the streets were flooded with people celebrating when Greece won the Euro, and all these despite all efforts by certain foreigners to de-Hellenize Cyprus, even forcing us against our will to be a separate state.
how the hell am I being arrogant. By simply denying that you should not base your agenda on ethnicity. I am not arrogant at all. And you are simply outright being antagonistic to strengthen your own views rather than sensibly weighing up the views of others for the sake of your own nationalistic proclivities. If this is the case then I will retaliate by stating your utter ignorance by not being able to differentiate in your argument between ethnicity (please define in the context of what I have stated in response), and the cultural factors. The fact of being a Cypriot is purely cultural! Did you not even read correctly the points I made?
Lets just clear this up immediately. the first settlers were Neolithic hunter-gathers (10,000 BCE)! Where is the evidence they were from Greece? The Mycenean Greek (about 14,000 BCE) were late comers (and the Hittites were here before that), and brought the first wave of Greek/Hellenistic culture to the island. They settled, but there was already an existent population in Cyprus! Read the history books!
And finally, I am talking about my cultural heritage. Did I make any such claim to my ethnicity? I am a bloody historian. Of course I know about where I come from which makes your ethnic argument completely bloody redundant. I have been teaching Anglo-Saxon history for the past year. I quite seriously suggest before you continue on this pseudo-political/dangerously nationalistic campaign/charade you go and take some lessons in history to properly back up your claims.
The only thing you got right in your response was that, in fact yes, my father's ancestry is German. But then where did the Germans come from. Oh? Wait, where did the Greeks come from? There appears to be a redundant argument about ethnicity going on, unless you paid attention to what I wrote. Greek-Cypriots can only possibly mean a political and cultural community (unless you can trace your ancestors back to the Myceneans or Ptolemics, which is reminiscent of a certain German ideology)Your argument, i state yet again is redundant from the viewpoint of ethnicity. the point you are making is the same point that all nationalisms for over a 100 years has claimed in the name of ethnicity and has caused countless deaths and violence. It is you that is arrogant and equally ignorant of the course of history and where nationalism takes people. in pushing the argument of ethnicity rather than supporting the cultural stance of course you are being fascist!
"Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity, in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry..."
I am clearly stating that my agenda would be a program of inclusion based on people who contribute to the culture of Cyprus (the cultural influences of the past 4,000 years!), not one of ethnicity.
Next time i shall have to clarify my points more precisely so no-brainers get what I am talking about (again). Its almost as if you never read my quote at all and couldn't wait to just display your poorly argued views. And I suggest you don't jump straight on your war horse and have a sensible discussion.
(clarification note: indigenous refers to 'first settlers' - THEY WERE NOT GREEK! additionally Greeks is a latter term. Mycenaeans were not Greeks, both has marked different cultures! Alexander the Great, the second wave of so-called Greek conquest, was from Macedonia (although there were plenty of mercenaries in his army), which was a heterogenous empire that is still undefinable today and is arguably regarded as a region. Greece itself, like Italy was an enclave of states with it inhabitants belonging to a number of different tribes...the only thing that can make any of these 'peoples' Greek, Myceneaen, Hittite, Turkish is cultural unless you are into Eugenics and are planning on producing a race of pure-bloods)...I could go on, but I think you have alot of reading to do.
My friend, you came to this forum claiming that you are
English-Cypriot, didn't you? How come you didn't apply your own theories on your own identity but instead you have the nerve to come here and tell us what our identity should be? If Greeks are not indigenous in Cyprus, the English are 10 times not indigenous to Britain. I never said that the Greeks were the very first inhabitants of Cyprus, but neither were the English the first Inhabitants of Britain, the Turks the first inhabitants of what is now Turkey etc. If somehow is wrong, fascistic, whatever, to call ourselves Greek, the same should apply for those who call themselves English, Turkish, French, Italian etc. You can't have a theory and then apply it selectively only where it suits you.
I am Greek because this is part of my identity, just like being English is part of yours. Not just culture, but also language and everything else that makes this identity are in fact Greek. Nothing to do with "pure-bloods" or "eugenics". If I can respect your identity of English-Cypriot and if I can respect the identity of somebody who lives in what is now Turkey calling himself Turkish (even though the original Turks were from central Asia and he is obviously not) then why can't you respect our identity?
I have no kind of agenda on this issue. All I am asking is respect to our identity, just like we respect the identities of others. Unfortunately you do have a politically motivated agenda, just like many foreigners do, and you believe that our identity is something that can be changed at will to fit your fascist agenda. You call this agenda "program of inclusion", but in reality is nothing more than an agenda of oppression and disrespect to the identities of the people of this island. Inclusion doesn't come from forcing everybody to be the same; inclusion comes from accepting and respecting the differences as it happens in all successful multi-ethnic democracies.
And by the way, if "indigenous" refers only to the "first settlers" as you claim, then there must be no indigenous people in Cyprus since all archeological evidence show there was no continuous human presence on the island. In other words, those few very first settlers didn't manage to survive and Cyprus had remained uninhabited until the next group arrived - which by your own definition could not be "indigenous" as they were not the very first. So I am sorry, but I will disagree with this definition of yours. Indigenous were several groups that came to Cyprus in different times when Cyprus was still mostly uninhabited, creating their new villages and cities on the island.