Cyprus-Forum.com

[joe]

additionally Greeks is a latter term. Mycenaeans were not Greeks,

This has got to be the third. What a bunch of revisionist malarky. Why are you so jealous for "King" Saxon? You honestly think anyone here is going to change their thinking because of a filthy Saxon told them to? King Saxon, nice name but its seemingly self-contradictory. Not in this forum, bitz.

[Get Real!]

Enjoy yourself Hermes...

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 151297.php

[Get Real!]

additionally Greeks is a latter term. Mycenaeans were not Greeks,

This has got to be the third. What a bunch of revisionist malarky. Why are you so jealous for "King" Saxon? You honestly think anyone here is going to change their thinking because of a filthy Saxon told them to? King Saxon, nice name but its seemingly self-contradictory. Not in this forum, bitz.

Shhhh....

I have a funny feeling that kingsaxon can run circles around you!

[joe]

additionally Greeks is a latter term. Mycenaeans were not Greeks,

This has got to be the third. What a bunch of revisionist malarky. Why are you so jealous for "King" Saxon? You honestly think anyone here is going to change their thinking because of a filthy Saxon told them to? King Saxon, nice name but its seemingly self-contradictory. Not in this forum, bitz.

Shhhh....

I have a funny feeling that kingsaxon can run circles around you!

I'd like to see that. Where can i meet him? I'm a beeeast, bitz.

[Get Real!]

additionally Greeks is a latter term. Mycenaeans were not Greeks,

This has got to be the third. What a bunch of revisionist malarky. Why are you so jealous for "King" Saxon? You honestly think anyone here is going to change their thinking because of a filthy Saxon told them to? King Saxon, nice name but its seemingly self-contradictory. Not in this forum, bitz.

Shhhh....

I have a funny feeling that kingsaxon can run circles around you!

I'd like to see that. Where can i meet him? I'm a beeeast, bitz.

Nobody doubts that...

[Hermes]

Enjoy yourself Hermes...

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 151297.php

Did you even bother to read what I said? Do you not know what it means that the Cypriot syllabary begets the Greek alphabet which in turn replaces the Cypriot syllabary? Do you not understand how the Cypriot culture influences Greek culture which then changes Cypriot culture? Do you not understand that cultural evolution is not a one-way street? Simple cause and effect? That Cyprus begets Greece which then begets Cyprus?

That everything merely proves that the Cypriot origins of Hellenic civilisation are also the Hellenic origins of Cypriot civilisation? Now, hard as it is, try and think dynamically and not statically. Otherwise you'll end up sounding like an advocate for some kind of bizarre Stone Age nostalgia - which is a pretty embarrassing place for a grown man to be.

[Get Real!]

Enjoy yourself Hermes...

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 151297.php

Did you even bother to read what I said? Do you not know what it means that the Cypriot syllabary begets the Greek alphabet which in turn replaces the Cypriot syllabary? Do you not understand how the Cypriot culture influences Greek culture which then changes Cypriot culture? Do you not understand that cultural evolution is not a one-way street? Simple cause and effect? That Cyprus begets Greece which then begets Cyprus?

That everything merely proves that the Cypriot origins of Hellenic civilisation are also the Hellenic origins of Cypriot civilisation? Now, hard as it is, try and think dynamically and not statically. Otherwise you'll end up sounding like an advocate for some kind of bizarre Stone Age nostalgia - which is a pretty embarrassing place for a grown man to be.

I think you're confusing Noah's family tree with Cyprus!

Now let the blood and oxygen flow into that little pea so we can wrap this one up...

It’s obvious that the author is just keeping in line with the going but fallacious theory of the presence of Mycenaeans on Cyprus with "Greeks of Cyprus", but of course there’s no evidence to support that and he’s not out to challenge that in this article because his concern is the birthplace.

Now, given that there’s no such thing as “Greeks on Cyprus” anymore than you could have “Portuguese in Greece”, because anyone who came to Cyprus would quickly get absorbed by the existing Cypriot culture especially at that ancient time when there was hardly any sense of ethnicity or national identity, then one can clearly see that what is labeled as the “Greek” language today is in fact the CYPRIOT LANGUAGE as invented and improved by CYPRIOTS!

Hermes, about turn! Forward march!

[Hermes]

Now, given that there’s no such thing as “Greeks on Cyprus” anymore than you could have “Portuguese in Greece”, because anyone who came to Cyprus would quickly get absorbed by the existing Cypriot culture especially at that ancient time when there was hardly any sense of ethnicity or national identity, then one can clearly see that what is labeled as the “Greek” language today is in fact the CYPRIOT LANGUAGE as invented and improved by CYPRIOTS!

Enough is enough! You are well and truly on your own here (well you and your crude English revisionist twit mate).

Now pay attention! The Achaean arrival in Cyprus brought with it the Mycenean Greek language. Which is closely related to Arcadocypriot - a dialect spoken in Arcadia and Cyprus. While Proto-Arcadocypriot (1200 BC) is supposed to have been spoken by Achaeans in the Peloponnese before the arrival of Dorians. According to Wikipedia "for this, it is named also southern Achaean. The isoglosses of the Cypriot and Arcadian dialects testify that the Achaeans had settled in Cyprus."

Are you with me? We also know that the modern Cypriot dialect is not an evolution of the ancient Arcadocypriot dialect, but evolved from Koine - the Hellenistic Greek spoken throughout post-Classical antiquity (c. 300 BC – AD 300).

So there is no evidence that the Arcadocypriot dialect (which was from the Peloponnese anyway) evolved into the common language of the Greeks. Rather Cyprus, as part of the Hellenistic world, adopted the common Greek dialect of the day which had itself evolved from Attic Greek.

Not only does the history and linguistics not bear out your theory but neither does it make any common sense that the more powerful Mycenaean Greeks were "absorbed" into the local culture.

All evidence is that Cyprus by c. 300 BC was part of the Hellenistic world. In fact our language, the modern Greek Cypriot language, is descended from the Attic Greek of Plato, Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, Thucydides and later Aristotle. In other words from the most prestigious and superior form of Greek. And your numbskull shenanigans and crude Stone Age nostalgia does a stupid disservice to the sheer bloody glory of the Greek Cypriot language. So just stop insulting us Cypriots with your dumbass "theories".

[Piratis]

historically-speaking there was an indigenous population on the island before any of the ethnicities mentioned above. This is what I would consider Cypriots who then by way of culture went through various stages of development, most notably Hellenism being the strongest influence. One thing for certain is we are only Greek by political nationalization. Cypriots have a strong sense of their own identity and not one of my family will tell you that they have strong affinity with Greece. And yes we could all be part Arab, Egyptian, Phoenician, Hittite, Frankish, Templar, Scottish (anyone noticed the red-haired scottish looking Cypriot?), Ottoman. But these definition belong to culturally defined groups and not strictly ethnic. So we much re-evaluate the question which should be one of inclusion. Is this an ethnic-nationalist debate or a cultural-nationalist one? If it is about the preservation of the unique and wonderful Cypriot culture, I think the latter is the best choice. Unless of course, your a fascist.

I myself am an English-Cypriot so I know where I stand. Who would deny my what I believe to be my heritage.

If the Greeks who came to Cyprus at about 1500BC are not indigenous to Cyprus, then the English (Angles) who went to Britain at about 500AD, could not possibly be indigenous to Britain. Not only the English went to Britain far later than Greeks came to Cyprus, but in Britain there are human settlements going back 30.000 years, as opposed to 10.000 years in Cyprus. (and the same kind of mixing happened in Britain as well - indigenous people, Celts, Romans, Vikings, Anglo-Saxons, French and more recently blacks, asians and everything else imaginable)

And then you come here to claim that you are English-Cypriot (possibly with only one, or even none, of your parents being English), and at the same time you imply that we can not be Greek-Cypriots because that would be "fascist"? I hope you realize how arrogant your position is.

I don't know you and your family, but I can tell you that the vast majority of Greek Cypriots voted for enosis in 1950, while more recently the streets were flooded with people celebrating when Greece won the Euro, and all these despite all efforts by certain foreigners to de-Hellenize Cyprus, even forcing us against our will to be a separate state.

how the hell am I being arrogant. By simply denying that you should not base your agenda on ethnicity. I am not arrogant at all. And you are simply outright being antagonistic to strengthen your own views rather than sensibly weighing up the views of others for the sake of your own nationalistic proclivities. If this is the case then I will retaliate by stating your utter ignorance by not being able to differentiate in your argument between ethnicity (please define in the context of what I have stated in response), and the cultural factors. The fact of being a Cypriot is purely cultural! Did you not even read correctly the points I made?

Lets just clear this up immediately. the first settlers were Neolithic hunter-gathers (10,000 BCE)! Where is the evidence they were from Greece? The Mycenean Greek (about 14,000 BCE) were late comers (and the Hittites were here before that), and brought the first wave of Greek/Hellenistic culture to the island. They settled, but there was already an existent population in Cyprus! Read the history books!

And finally, I am talking about my cultural heritage. Did I make any such claim to my ethnicity? I am a bloody historian. Of course I know about where I come from which makes your ethnic argument completely bloody redundant. I have been teaching Anglo-Saxon history for the past year. I quite seriously suggest before you continue on this pseudo-political/dangerously nationalistic campaign/charade you go and take some lessons in history to properly back up your claims.

The only thing you got right in your response was that, in fact yes, my father's ancestry is German. But then where did the Germans come from. Oh? Wait, where did the Greeks come from? There appears to be a redundant argument about ethnicity going on, unless you paid attention to what I wrote. Greek-Cypriots can only possibly mean a political and cultural community (unless you can trace your ancestors back to the Myceneans or Ptolemics, which is reminiscent of a certain German ideology)Your argument, i state yet again is redundant from the viewpoint of ethnicity. the point you are making is the same point that all nationalisms for over a 100 years has claimed in the name of ethnicity and has caused countless deaths and violence. It is you that is arrogant and equally ignorant of the course of history and where nationalism takes people. in pushing the argument of ethnicity rather than supporting the cultural stance of course you are being fascist!

"Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity, in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry..."

I am clearly stating that my agenda would be a program of inclusion based on people who contribute to the culture of Cyprus (the cultural influences of the past 4,000 years!), not one of ethnicity.

Next time i shall have to clarify my points more precisely so no-brainers get what I am talking about (again). Its almost as if you never read my quote at all and couldn't wait to just display your poorly argued views. And I suggest you don't jump straight on your war horse and have a sensible discussion.

(clarification note: indigenous refers to 'first settlers' - THEY WERE NOT GREEK! additionally Greeks is a latter term. Mycenaeans were not Greeks, both has marked different cultures! Alexander the Great, the second wave of so-called Greek conquest, was from Macedonia (although there were plenty of mercenaries in his army), which was a heterogenous empire that is still undefinable today and is arguably regarded as a region. Greece itself, like Italy was an enclave of states with it inhabitants belonging to a number of different tribes...the only thing that can make any of these 'peoples' Greek, Myceneaen, Hittite, Turkish is cultural unless you are into Eugenics and are planning on producing a race of pure-bloods)...I could go on, but I think you have alot of reading to do.

My friend, you came to this forum claiming that you are English-Cypriot, didn't you? How come you didn't apply your own theories on your own identity but instead you have the nerve to come here and tell us what our identity should be? If Greeks are not indigenous in Cyprus, the English are 10 times not indigenous to Britain. I never said that the Greeks were the very first inhabitants of Cyprus, but neither were the English the first Inhabitants of Britain, the Turks the first inhabitants of what is now Turkey etc. If somehow is wrong, fascistic, whatever, to call ourselves Greek, the same should apply for those who call themselves English, Turkish, French, Italian etc. You can't have a theory and then apply it selectively only where it suits you.

I am Greek because this is part of my identity, just like being English is part of yours. Not just culture, but also language and everything else that makes this identity are in fact Greek. Nothing to do with "pure-bloods" or "eugenics". If I can respect your identity of English-Cypriot and if I can respect the identity of somebody who lives in what is now Turkey calling himself Turkish (even though the original Turks were from central Asia and he is obviously not) then why can't you respect our identity?

I have no kind of agenda on this issue. All I am asking is respect to our identity, just like we respect the identities of others. Unfortunately you do have a politically motivated agenda, just like many foreigners do, and you believe that our identity is something that can be changed at will to fit your fascist agenda. You call this agenda "program of inclusion", but in reality is nothing more than an agenda of oppression and disrespect to the identities of the people of this island. Inclusion doesn't come from forcing everybody to be the same; inclusion comes from accepting and respecting the differences as it happens in all successful multi-ethnic democracies.

And by the way, if "indigenous" refers only to the "first settlers" as you claim, then there must be no indigenous people in Cyprus since all archeological evidence show there was no continuous human presence on the island. In other words, those few very first settlers didn't manage to survive and Cyprus had remained uninhabited until the next group arrived - which by your own definition could not be "indigenous" as they were not the very first. So I am sorry, but I will disagree with this definition of yours. Indigenous were several groups that came to Cyprus in different times when Cyprus was still mostly uninhabited, creating their new villages and cities on the island.

[Maxx]

Maybe you are a hairy, Stone Age Cypriot throwback.

Uhh, have you ever seen the size of GR's head? He really looks like a neanderthal!

Din villan mou na dis agoma...

Choirokitiani boutsara!

A very Cypriot trait may I add.

No wonder all the Greeks are lining up.