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Sener Levent's Solution Proposals

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Re: Sener Levent's Solution Proposals

Postby Get Real! » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:50 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:We cannot deny returning to the 1960 agreements, all we can do is negotiate amendments because of the defacto changes and events of all these years.

Nonsense! The Turkish minority invited and collaborated with the Turkish invader to setup a breakaway "state" and in the process denounced the RoC.

There can never be any going back to what they denounced and destroyed.


This is just your opinion. Try discussing the issue of who denounced and destroyed the RoC with the other side. haven't you learned anything after almost 30,000 posts in here? Haven't you learned that both communities did the same things?

Try telling the UN the EU or anyone you wish that we can deny return of the Kibrislis to the RoC system and see what happens.

Absolutely nothing. The UNSC will never be unanimous when it comes to Cyprus.
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Re: Sener Levent's Solution Proposals

Postby Pyrpolizer » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:35 pm

Hermes wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:However you forgot that the whole point of the discussion is that the Kibrislis will not simply sit back and wait. As soon as they realize they are losing it all, they will officially ask for their return to the Roc system and our only demand will be for some amendments. I kind of suspect Turkey will push them to do so as well.
And like I said there is not a chance in a million we could of refuse. :idea:


Interesting points, Pyrpolizer. I wonder if you could clarify why you feel sure that the TCs will ask for a return to the RoC. Which among them will ask? Eroglu and his kind want an autonomous state and would prefer a continuation of the status quo, subsidised by Turkey of course, if they can't get partition. The settlers have no future in a return to the 1960 arrangements and given that they are the majority in the north, there is no political pressure from them to re-unify the island. And what makes you suspect that Turkey will agree to the RoC system as the basis for a withdrawal? We won't accept a "guarantee system" that will give them the right of intervention or to keep any troops on the island. And what of their supposed "strategic" interests in Cyprus?

You must have a scenario in mind as to how the TCs would make this happen. We know what the agenda of Turkey and the TC leadership is: it is partition. Always has been. Seems to me you are relying on some kind of Kibrisli grassroots agitation for a return to the 1960 constitution? Sener Levent apart, I don't see too many calling for it. Do you think the majority of Kibrislis would take it if offered a choice? Would the TC leadership want it? Why would Turkey?

I agree that we wouldn't be able to refuse it, with amendments, if it were offered. It might be the most satisfactory option. But how such a scenario would unfold is unclear to me.


Hello Hermes, thanks for your feedback.
Apart from the fact that this was always my #1 personal choice for a solution, I base my certainty on the fact that there will be no other option for the Kibrislis, or Turkey. Notice I say no other option for an agreed SOLUTION, I am not talking for options for partition or annexation of the occupied or simple continuation of the status quo. A quick look at this very forum if you live abroad, or around you if you live in Cyprus, will convince you that currently the Kypreoi feel they are on the strong side just by the smell of the gas, imagine what will happen after this comes to surface. To make a long story short, BBF or any other type of F will be history soon after Christofias is gone (in 1.5 years).

You are right the Eroglus target is partition. But... Eroglu and the partitionists are not more than 35%. Even VP who was considered kind of a partitionist in this forum said it clearly "we will always have the 1960 agreement to roll back". The remaining of the Kibrislis do want a solution, however very soon there will be no other option for them other than return to the RoC system!

You are right that the settlers are slightly the majority today, perhaps on a 55-45% ratio. Luckily they have not acquired much political power yet. They need one more generation to make this jump. So on one hand the political power is still in the hands of the Kibrislis and it seems the settlers mostly follow what the Kibrislis decide.
It is a MYTH that even with the return to the 1960 agreements with amendments (or with any other agreed solution) the settlers will leave. We are bound by the EU aquis that places human rights on top of everything. Colonizing done by Turkey is a crime, but the settler himself is not guilty of anything.And he gets rights if he is born here, or has stayed here most of his life, no matter how much we hate that.
What makes you think the Kibrisli side doesn't know these things (that our leadership so carefully hides from us). There will be a case by case selection of the settlers who will have to leave. And I am afraid they will not be more than 1/3rd.
Furthermore the settlers are not very attached to the free lands and homes they got. For them becoming EU citizens and emigrating to the UK or Germany is a fascinating dream coming true. Honestly I don't foresee any serious objections from them.

Now why should the settlers vote in favor of a return to the 1960 system with amendments? Simple, there will be NO VOTING, the 1960 system even with some amendments is nothing new, it doesn't need voting. Probably the Kibrisli "parliament" will vote for it calling herself "provisional" under the very 1960 constitution.

The only one who will apparently be kicking like a donkey for a long time to come is of course Turkey itself. Eventually it will yield, perhaps under some new agitation of the Kibrislis, perhaps from international pressure, perhaps from economic downfall...
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Re: Sener Levent's Solution Proposals

Postby wyoming cowboy » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:13 pm

Capt J Sparrow wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:I very much appreciate your clarification. It seems you are not in fact proposing a return to the 1960 Agreement - but to some 'advanced' version, very much in line with what Makarios (allegedly) proposed. But, what makes you think, second-time around, the TCs (aka Turkey) would more likely accept these amendments? Have they learnt some lesson?


What makes you think that some Greek Cypriots (aka Greece) would accept the amendments?

Do you think Greece has learnt any lessons? If not, do we have your permission to remind them of the fact that they are total spineless fuck ups?



As a matter of fact in 1971/1972..Denktash agreed to the amendments to the Roc constitution on the condition that Makarios renounce Enosis, Makarios refused
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Re: Sener Levent's Solution Proposals

Postby wyoming cowboy » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:19 pm

Makarios refuses the acceptance of his 13 points by Denktash:

The Junta Speaks, and Makarios Responds, to the Denktash Positions, June 1971

The Greek government, and especially the junta, were hardly a constructive force in the Cyprus imbroglio, but in viewing Denktash’s letter of April 1971, Athens urged Makarios to declare victory and withdraw - - i.e., Denktash and the Turkish Cypriots (and, by implication, Turkey itself) had accepted key pieces of the Greek Cypriot position and that Makarios should be able to live with the Turkish Cypriot insistence on local self-government. Here is commentary on Clerides' thinking at the time, sandwiched around Makarios’ response to the Greek colonels and, in effect, to Denktash. Then Clerides' official letter to Denktash follows.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clerides, in his memoirs, acknowledges that “a major mistake was committed by Makarios” and the Government in not accepting the advice the letter contained.

The letter correctly stated, Clerides admits, that Denktash had accepted all the "13 points” forwarded by Makarios in 1963, and in the bargain the Greek Cypriots were to give was local government in a separate, communal structure. The Turkish negotiators were willing to live with Greek Cypriot proposals with respect to the powers and functions of municipal governance, and hence, Clerides writes, “we were wrong to refuse the Turkish proposal,” which would provide that local authorities would be placed jointly under supervision of the president and the vice president of the state.

“Generally speaking.” Clerides continues, “all the advice given in the Greek Note was sound.” It maintained the concept of a unitary state and did not introduce federalism. It would have dealt with all the constitutional issues that provoked Makarios’ 13 Points in 1963. “The inexperienced Greek Cypriot leadership,” Clerides says, “not only rejected . . . the more mature advice of the ‘mother,’ but also accused her of having conspired with Turkey, behind the ‘daughter's’ back, to sell her down the river.”

The letter from Makarios

Nicosia, 24th June 1971.

Dear Mr. President,

I forward, attached to this letter, the letter of Mr. Glafkos Clerides, as approved by the Council of Ministers, which replies to the letter of Mr. Denktash of 27th April 1971.

The tone and the content of the reply of Mr. Clerides leaves the door open for the continuation of the talks, as recommended by the Greek Government and in accordance with our own intentions. I am of the opinion that the reply to Mr. Denktash does not offer to the Turkish Cypriots a pretext to interrupt the dialogue, except of course, if its interruption has in any case been decided. In drafting the reply we had in mind the views and recommendations the Greek Government forwarded to us in the Note of 9th June 1971, as well as the letter addressed to me by your Excellency, dated 18th June 1971, which was brought by Ambassador Angelas Horafas.

I regret, because, due to differences of opinion on certain views of the Greek Government, the reply to Mr. Denktash has not been drafted in accordance with such views.

As your Excellency recollects, I held the view originally that we should not accept any discussion on the issue raised by the Turkish side on local government, because even the mere acceptance of discussion would create an issue, which is not even foreseen in the provisions of the 1960 constitution. We accepted, however, to discuss the issue because of the insistent advice of the Greek Government, in order to demonstrate a spirit of good will towards the Turkish Cypriots. it was agreed with the Greek Government that it would be possible, without risk to grant local government of the first degree having as basis the village level. Subsequently, in the course of the negotiations, we accepted local government of the second degree having as a basis groups of villages. Despite our original objections we accepted that the grouping of villages or the areas would be defined on the basis of racial criteria. Emphatically, however, it was stressed, both by the Greek and Greek Cypriot side that in no case ought the Turkish proposal regarding the creation of a central local government authority be accepted. I consider that it would constitute a serious change of position from the above if we were to accept, as recommended by the Greek Government, a Turkish Minister or Deputy Minister, who would have competence on matters of local government. In fact we would have accepted the central local government authority in the person of the Minister or the Deputy Minister.

In your letter addressed to me you express the view that the presence in the Council of Ministers of a Turkish Minister with competence on matters of local government in its entirety, not only does not weaken, but on the contrary underlines the unity of the state. I disagree with this view. The fixing of areas of local government on racial criteria breaks the unity of the state at its base, and this separatism continues upwards by appointing a Turkish Minister. The fact has to be taken under consideration that he would exercise power and supervision on already separated first and second degree level authorities of local government. He would both in form and in substance constitute the central local government authority. Placing, on the other hand, the matters of local government of the Greek Cypriots under a Turkish Minister, for the sake of apparent unity, I consider nationally unacceptable.

I could speak more extensively on this point, but I do not consider it necessary to expand on it. In view of the above it is not necessary to refer to the Turkish demand regarding separate Turkish local police. The Greek Government believes that with the sole exchange of satisfying, to a certain extent the Turkish Cypriots on the subject of local government the present enclaves would be dissolved, the Turkish Cypriots would accept practically all the "13 points" of my old proposals, and this would constitute an important gain.

But, by accepting local government, as proposed, the enclaves, are not dissolved. On the contrary, they are made permanent and are legitimised. It is true that most of the 13 points of my old proposals, which were formulated under different circumstances, are accepted. The exchange which is demanded, in any event is too large and its acceptance would present the Zurich and London Agreements as a better situation, despite the fact that we do not desire a return to them.

I have referred particularly to the subject of local government because this constitutes the greatest obstacle in the talks. On other points of disagreement the reply to Mr. Denktash speaks with argumentation and I do not consider it necessary to make reference to them in this letter. The line, which we have drawn, in common both on the constitution and the international aspect of the Cyprus problem and their interconnection, is the most appropriate. I believe that deviation from this line will lead to a solution which would be nationally harmful.

In your letter, Mr. President, you reject the circulating rumours, which allege that your proposals of the Greek Government have been accepted in advance by Turkey and that in close understanding with Turkey you plan a conspiracy against me. I wish to assure you that I have never wanted to be part of such rumours.

In conclusion, Mr. President, I refer to the last paragraph of your letter, which states that if the proposals of the Greek Government are not accepted the Greek Government would find itself faced by "hard necessity to take those measures, which national interest and the best interests of the Cypriot Hellenism demand, irrespective how bitter they might be".

The content of this paragraph creates the impression of a threat, though I find it difficult to accept this interpretation or impression as accurate. If, however, the said paragraph really constitutes a threat, I regret to say that an unacceptable situation is created, which as the person on whom Cypriot Hellenism has placed its trust, I cannot ignore. It would, consequently, be desirable that the necessary clarifications should be given, in order to be able to continue our harmonious co-operation for the benefit of the common national cause.

With heart-felt wishes,

Makarios
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Re: Sener Levent's Solution Proposals

Postby Hermes » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:32 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:Now why should the settlers vote in favor of a return to the 1960 system with amendments? Simple, there will be NO VOTING, the 1960 system even with some amendments is nothing new, it doesn't need voting. Probably the Kibrisli "parliament" will vote for it calling herself "provisional" under the very 1960 constitution.

The only one who will apparently be kicking like a donkey for a long time to come is of course Turkey itself. Eventually it will yield, perhaps under some new agitation of the Kibrislis, perhaps from international pressure, perhaps from economic downfall...


Thanks for clarifying your ideas, Pyrpolizer. I can see a scenario how the 1960 settlement becomes the basis of a solution. As you say, Turkey will be the odd one out here. But much depends on Kibrislis agitating for a solution along these lines. Who knows? The protests against Turkey's role in the north's affairs earlier this year could be a precursor to how this might unfold. I don't know the balance in the "parliament" of the "trnc and how easy it would be for them to defy Turkey's wishes.

I think we are treading water for the moment until the current talks peter out and Christofias and Eroglu depart the scene. I think a new GC leadership, more self-confident, and assuming the gas reserves are real, might just be the catalyst for change we seek. International developments and financial pressure on Turkey could catch Turkey in a pincer movement. Interesting times ahead. Let's hope the Kibrislis can rise to the challenge...
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Re: Sener Levent's Solution Proposals

Postby repulsewarrior » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:00 pm

...very interesting wyoming, with only communal issues as the prime factors of their impasse, it would have been possible to consider a definition of Bicommunal which served as a model when describing incidence where People identify themselves not just as a State that is one Nation, but a State with Nations; as Individuals a People, as Persons Peoples as well.

...if we are not comitted to this reform of our Constitution, there is no Country, Turkey is right to refuse recognising its credibility.

...talk about virgin birth, it's the "Greeks" that need to create their own National Assembly if they want the equal representation that "Turks" now have. The Republic of Cyprus can never be Greek because it is Cypriot, and this act would certainly end any reason to keep apart the Citizens of this one island. Since both (and others) will have within this context a means to sustain the distinct identities they choose, as Cypriots they are the Stewards of its Hertance as an ethnosphere.

...ah re wyoming, you know the drill, please read my manifesto.
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Re: Sener Levent's Solution Proposals

Postby Nikitas » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:27 am

Bananiot said:

"Interesting Nikitas. Please confirm: Are you explicitly saying that in 1963 we had a civil war? You must be the only person that says this, here, it is all about the TC mutiny."

By any definition it was a civil war. Cypriot fought against Cypriot, it was civil war. Calling it a mutiny is a convenient rationalisation. If you look at the Spanish Civil War there are similarities: foremost being the involvement of foreigners in the form of the Condor Legion and the Leftist Volunteers, the passivity of the international community being the other.

Also it is worth noting that Pyro is right when he says that a full return to the pre 1963 status quo is practically impossible even if Turkey were to uncondionally quit tomorrow morning. Turkey has managed to impose partition on Cyprus. The consequences will be felt for generations. But that is no reason to accept it. The ebb and flow of the population on the island has gone on for centuries. It will keep doing so. Proof of this is the daily movement of thousands of TCs to the south for work. People move to where there is economic life, not where politicians want them to stay. Left to their own devices people will delete the demarcation lines just by living and working.
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Re: Sener Levent's Solution Proposals

Postby wyoming cowboy » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:34 am

repulsewarrior wrote:...very interesting wyoming, with only communal issues as the prime factors of their impasse, it would have been possible to consider a definition of Bicommunal which served as a model when describing incidence where People identify themselves not just as a State that is one Nation, but a State with Nations; as Individuals a People, as Persons Peoples as well.

...if we are not comitted to this reform of our Constitution, there is no Country, Turkey is right to refuse recognising its credibility.

...talk about virgin birth, it's the "Greeks" that need to create their own National Assembly if they want the equal representation that "Turks" now have. The Republic of Cyprus can never be Greek because it is Cypriot, and this act would certainly end any reason to keep apart the Citizens of this one island. Since both (and others) will have within this context a means to sustain the distinct identities they choose, as Cypriots they are the Stewards of its Hertance as an ethnosphere.

...ah re wyoming, you know the drill, please read my manifesto.


Ah re Repulsewarrior....it just goes to show that there were chances in our hands before the turk invasion to settle this problem with the turk cyps, the tc's already had jurisdiction in their villages, courts, police, postal system.(one of makarios' complaints was that the tc were slow in delivering mail).. what Greek cypriot would not accept a solution based on the zurich agreement with makarios' amendments?
Re Repulsewarrior i have read your manifesto, it makes sense in a utopian world, but this is Cyprus we are talking about. Makarios' refusal reminds me of a story in Cyprus...My uncle owns a Periptero in Limassol, i gave him the idea to take a shoe shine machine and place it inside his store, give your customers a free shoe shine...the result, Cypriots would not use it one because they were wary that it was free and the second because they had never seen anything like that before and thus were resistant in using it, maybe they thought it would tear their leg off, i dont know. In my opinion Cypriots are not risk takers they LOVE the status quo, even if its detrimental in the long run. what do you think?
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Re: Sener Levent's Solution Proposals

Postby repulsewarrior » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:36 am

...this must be the "spots" on the map that i saw in '74.

thank-you for the compliment, it works in a utopian world, but no solution exists for the Problem but the perfect one.

...to repeat, this is not a Greek/Turk Problem, there lies the error we regret, but "Greeks" and "Turks" still hold the agenda; if we want Peace we cannot be subject to "them", we must stand-up as Cypriots to define a single identity as Persons we can defend united as Individuals.

no wyoming, cypriots deserve to be applauded with what they have had to reconstruct over fifty years. and they have come a long way since they were free from being an Ottoman empire backwater for 350 years, but the future is up to us to promote the dialog amongst ourselves that can no longer be ignored by the leaders of the interlocutory parties, because we inspire our own leaders.
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Re: Sener Levent's Solution Proposals

Postby wyoming cowboy » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:55 am

I agree Repulsewarrior in that there must be a dialogue among the gc and tc if there will ever be peace and a grassroots uprising would solve this problem rather quickly. Unfortunately the status quo has entrapped both sides to cling to what is the safe. Is there an attempt or could you give me an example of any sort of grassroot organization that has managed to bring these two people close. I visit downtown nicosia spicifically the ledra corridor including the cafe shops and other places and i couldnt see it,. I ask the youth from the gc side if they have had any contact with tc their own age, which they must have much in common, they all say no.
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