Cyprus-Forum.com

[Harry]

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[Harry]

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[ELLAS H TEFRA!]

What exactly do you mean by " are they collecting rent"??

You need to clarify exactly what you mean to ask.

[cypezokyli]

i dont know if they pay rent.
i dont know if we pay rent

How far does Turkey really think they're going to get with the me me me attitude that they always had

this is called politics my friend. in all its beauty.

in turkey by the way there were a mumber of improvement due to the EU prospect.

The reason why GC's dont want to sit at the negotiating table is because they want to know the rules first

i guess u gave the answer to your question

Stop crying foul if you still want to play with rules and principles

the rules of politics and diplomacy were written for hundrets of years now and justice was not included inside. whether we like it or not. thats what makes me sad about our politicians. they are still not able to accept the rules and play the game

[Kifeas]

the rules of politics and diplomacy were written for hundrets of years now and justice was not included inside. whether we like it or not. thats what makes me sad about our politicians. they are still not able to accept the rules and play the game

What do you mean by that? Are you saying that we should neglect or abandon the legality aspect of things and just rely everything on pure politics, in order to solve the Cyprus issue? My friend you know nothing! If everything were simple and mere politics, we wouldn’t even negotiate today. If everything was mere politics and no regard to international legality, TRNC would have been a recognised state by now and the Turks wouldn’t even bother to negotiate anything with us. Do you think the reason that TRNC has not been recognised up to this day is due to our superior vs. Turkey’s political capabilities and displacement? No my friend, Turkey politically has a much bigger international political displacement than little Cyprus. Unless you do not know what determines domestic and international politics. “TRNC” is not a recognised state and the Turks are negotiating a political solution with us, simply because the international legal framework was such that it did not allow the realities they created on the ground to become legalised. If we had to rely purely on politics (read the will and interests of the powerful ones) and if we will rely purely on politics and diplomacy for the future, we do not stand a chance in a million to solve the Cyprus problem in any sensible for us manner and fashion.

And by the way, since you are such a fan of politics and since you rightfully say that the rules of politics and diplomacy were written for hundreds of years now and justice was not included inside, you should also know who is the founder of contemporary political thinking. If you do not, then read Nicholo Machiavelli’s “The Price.” There in, you will discover what politics meant then and what it means now. The only difference between then and now is that in the middle ages, where machiavelli lived, there was no international rule of law and international legality. The big and powerful were determining their terms to the small and weak. Luckily, we live in the 22nd century were there is some international legality and justice framework to protect and defend the small and weak, the very framework of principles that you suggested us to neglect and /or abandon.

[cypezokyli]

My friend you know nothing!

the only think i know for sure is that i know nothing.

If everything was mere politics and no regard to international legality, TRNC would have been a recognised state by now and the Turks wouldn’t even bother to negotiate anything with us. Do you think the reason that TRNC has not been recognised up to this day is due to our superior vs. Turkey’s political capabilities and displacement?

intarnational legality...hmm
like the Iraq war for example. look around you in the world and tell me where u have seen justice. africa, south america, middle east or cyprus.

plus what u r saying about the non-recognition of the TRNC for that long could be reversed and ask why didnt justice (if it so powerful) gave a solution to the problem all these years? if it was a simple justice problem it would have been solved in a court. let aside that we have already accepted that any solution is NOT going to be fair ( didnt you notice the slight move of our politicains from dikaii kai viosimi, to viosimi and leitourgiki?)

Unless you do not know what determines domestic and international politics.

no i dont. why dont u tell me

Turks are negotiating a political solution with us, simply because the international legal framework was such that it did not allow the realities they created on the ground to become legalised

the turks did not negotiate with us the whole denktash era (around 30 years) without any concequences. it was only the tc who suffered the concequences.
the fact that they agreed to sit on the negotiating table with us was due to the EU prospect. it was a need, and interest that force them on the table and not laws.
let aside that they managed to negotiate a plan that put the blame of the no solution to us.

by the way. do you accept the UN as the organisation which represents the international law? i dont if u noticed but the Aplan was proposed by the secretary general of the organisation which we claim according to its rules the cyprus problem should be solved!!!
piratis posts the whole time the laws of the human rights as mentioned by the UN. yet he also claims that Aplan made by the UN did not follow those rules. that is... the Un does not follow its own rules!!!
is that a paradox?
no my friend it is poltics.
and please dont tell me that the Aplan was made by the americans and the english (who control the UN) to serve turkey bc u r exactly proving my point.

If you do not, then read Nicholo Machiavelli’s “The Price.”

i ve read machiavelli. and i fail to see the difference between then and now.
i would also propose thoukidides. read the pelloponisian war. u will be surprised by the "justice" of your ancestors.
they broke agreements, tried to form agreements with the persians against each other, it happened a number of times that after a city surrendered they just killed everyone, let aside that making refuggees and putting their own sttlers was a common practise back then.

Luckily, we live in the 22nd century were there is some international legality and justice framework to protect and defend the small and weak, the very framework that you suggested us to neglect and /or abandon.

i agree that there is some but i wouldnt say that it is enough. i didnot say abondon but wake up and play the game and stop complaning about the rules.

[cypezokyli]

you should also know who is the founder of contemporary political thinking. If you do not, then read Nicholo Machiavelli’s “The Price

i really dont know who said that. perhaps is indeed a great historian. but since as greeks we are proud that we gave everything to the rest of the world i would like to say that macchiaveli was no original.

i have just read about the massacre of milos. unbelievably beautiful.

it seems that the first americans were the athenians. at least the americans tried to trick the rest of the world (with no effect) that saddam had nuclear weapons. at least one could say that saddam was a dictaor and attacked quweit or killed some sunnis. i mean if one would really try hard he could find a stupid excuse.

but our great ancestors were at least honest:
thoukidides apanta
istorion E
kaktos
pages 165 till end

so,
milos decided to be neutral. the athenians said to them :u are either with us or we kill you. they said actually:
since we both know that in human relatiionships justice is important only when there exists equal power to apply it, and that, when that does not happen the strong do what there strenght allows them to do, and the weak accept all they are forced to accept ...this law we didnt create we found, and we didnt apply first but it existed before us and it will exist after us.

(its in both our interest to support us) because that way u have the chance to submit before greatest harm comes on you, and for us if we dont destroy you is in our interest

and dont let your mind go to shame that usually destroys people when they are faced with real danger. because many ... carried away by this so called honor , and the attraction offered by her name they fell into unhealed disaster and to humiliations even worse...

milos decided to fight. they made the athenians their enemies. after they started loosing they decided to negotiate. the agreement was that the people of milos would decide for their future. the athenians after the agreement killed all the men and sold all women and children as slaves. 700 years of milos history were destroyed in one night.

in the island the put 500 athenians settleers

arhaio pnevma athanato

[ELLAS H TEFRA!]

Machiavelli's the "Prince"...not the "Price".