Cyprus-Forum.com

[Me Ed]

Here's a purely hypothetical question.

If the Turks only took say 15% of Cyprus in 1974 that would have adequately accommodated the TCs at the time, instead of the disproportionate 37%, do you think there would be a Cyprus problem today?

[repulsewarrior]

...wow not a single reply.

interesting question...

given the conditions of the time, chances are the coup would have had an opposite result, the world would certainly be different, the bloodshed would probably have continued like in Ireland or in the Middle East, perhaps for as long; Cyprus or anything Cypriot would have been entirely lost in the "Greek"/"Turk" imbroglio.

cynically speaking, if there was no coup and Turkey took 15%, chances are we'd be in the same state of Affairs.

[supporttheunderdog]

2.21 AM many are asleep.

No Coup and Turkey would not had the cheap excuse it needed to justify an invasion - something it had been probably contemplating since 1954 when I beleive Turkey first began to interfere in Cyprus. Turkey's interest in the Island has probably never seriously considered the interests of the Kibrilisi, who in the period 1958 to 1974 were (whether they knew it or not, and willing or otherwise) pawns of Turkey. The only interest Turkey has was in preventing Cyprus falling into Greek hands, arising out of the long standing emnity with Greece, since Greek independance in the 1830's. and more particuklarly since events post World War one, that in the early 1950's were well within the living memory of many Turks.

Thrown in other geopolitical issues, such as the cold war, Arab nationalism with Suez, etc, the Arab Israeli conflict, etc., etc, and US perceptions (correct or otherwise) about Big Mak and the Soviets, and you have the recipe for 1974.

However no coup, probably no invasion.

[Capt J Sparrow]

2.21 AM many are asleep.

No Coup and Turkey would not had the cheap excuse it needed to justify an invasion - something it had been probably contemplating since 1954 when I beleive Turkey first began to interfere in Cyprus. Turkey's interest in the Island has probably never seriously considered the interests of the Kibrilisi, who in the period 1958 to 1974 were (whether they knew it or not, and willing or otherwise) pawns of Turkey. The only interest Turkey has was in preventing Cyprus falling into Greek hands, arising out of the long standing emnity with Greece, since Greek independance in the 1830's. and more particuklarly since events post World War one, that in the early 1950's were well within the living memory of many Turks.

Thrown in other geopolitical issues, such as the cold war, Arab nationalism with Suez, etc, the Arab Israeli conflict, etc., etc, and US perceptions (correct or otherwise) about Big Mak and the Soviets, and you have the recipe for 1974.

However no coup, probably no invasion.

Not so sure about that mate.

Sure, the coup was convenient for the Turks, in somehow giving 'some justification' to the invasion, but I believe an invasion would've occured regardless. In fact, I think Turkey even admitted that they would've invaded even if there was no TC community on the island.

I think the Cold War had caught up with Cyprus. We were non aligned and had friendly relations with the Eastern Block, and NATO felt threatened. I think we at times underestimate these influences. The partition of Cyprus was as much a NATO and US desire behind the scenes. They did not want another Cuba in the Med.

We played with fire, and got burnt. We are as much victims of the US and Soviet Cold War.

Cyprus should have attempted to join NATO in 1960. Then and only then, a Turkish invasion can not occur.

Unfortunately, some Cypriots carry on with their anti NATO sloganeering, but there is little substance and no rationality.

[Capt J Sparrow]

And if we were in NATO, we would have had more stability.

The US and allies would have influence in our country. Perhaps there would be no inter communal violence and this would have been nipped in the bud very early. There would be no calls for ENOSIS by some sections and the constitution would be slowly amended to conform to international norms and eventually EU principles.

[supporttheunderdog]

2.21 AM many are asleep.

No Coup and Turkey would not had the cheap excuse it needed to justify an invasion - something it had been probably contemplating since 1954 when I beleive Turkey first began to interfere in Cyprus. Turkey's interest in the Island has probably never seriously considered the interests of the Kibrilisi, who in the period 1958 to 1974 were (whether they knew it or not, and willing or otherwise) pawns of Turkey. The only interest Turkey has was in preventing Cyprus falling into Greek hands, arising out of the long standing emnity with Greece, since Greek independance in the 1830's. and more particuklarly since events post World War one, that in the early 1950's were well within the living memory of many Turks.

Thrown in other geopolitical issues, such as the cold war, Arab nationalism with Suez, etc, the Arab Israeli conflict, etc., etc, and US perceptions (correct or otherwise) about Big Mak and the Soviets, and you have the recipe for 1974.

However no coup, probably no invasion.

Not so sure about that mate.

Sure, the coup was convenient for the Turks, in somehow giving 'some justification' to the invasion, but I believe an invasion would've occured regardless. In fact, I think Turkey even admitted that they would've invaded even if there was no TC community on the island.

I think the Cold War had caught up with Cyprus. We were non aligned and had friendly relations with the Eastern Block, and NATO felt threatened. I think we at times underestimate these influences. The partition of Cyprus was as much a NATO and US desire behind the scenes. They did not want another Cuba in the Med.

We played with fire, and got burnt. We are as much victims of the US and Soviet Cold War.

Cyprus should have attempted to join NATO in 1960. Then and only then, a Turkish invasion can not occur.

Unfortunately, some Cypriots carry on with their anti NATO sloganeering, but there is little substance and no rationality.

So much of what you say is so very true: for a long time I have thought what you have said and expressed so well.

I think any attempt to acheive Enosis with Greece (irrespective of whther or not it affected the Kibrilisi and indeed irrespective of whether there were Kibrilisi ) at anytime since the mid 50's would no doubt have triggered an Invasion, however absent a minority allegedly ethnically related group Turkey could claim it was protecting, invasion would have to have been dressed up in some other way to disguise the naked act of aggression that it was.

I am still of the view that the Coup (or Greek Invasion as Big Mak declared it) was more for the benefit of the Greek Colonels and Greek Geopolitical interests not because of any fillial affection of Greeks towards Cypriots, rather I wonder how much of a one way sreet that was.

To little has been said about Big Mak's delusions of adequacy as a world statesman and I thoroughly agree with your analysis of the cold war situation.

[CBBB]

2.21 AM many are asleep.

No Coup and Turkey would not had the cheap excuse it needed to justify an invasion - something it had been probably contemplating since 1954 when I beleive Turkey first began to interfere in Cyprus. Turkey's interest in the Island has probably never seriously considered the interests of the Kibrilisi, who in the period 1958 to 1974 were (whether they knew it or not, and willing or otherwise) pawns of Turkey. The only interest Turkey has was in preventing Cyprus falling into Greek hands, arising out of the long standing emnity with Greece, since Greek independance in the 1830's. and more particuklarly since events post World War one, that in the early 1950's were well within the living memory of many Turks.

Thrown in other geopolitical issues, such as the cold war, Arab nationalism with Suez, etc, the Arab Israeli conflict, etc., etc, and US perceptions (correct or otherwise) about Big Mak and the Soviets, and you have the recipe for 1974.

However no coup, probably no invasion.

Not so sure about that mate.

Sure, the coup was convenient for the Turks, in somehow giving 'some justification' to the invasion, but I believe an invasion would've occured regardless. In fact, I think Turkey even admitted that they would've invaded even if there was no TC community on the island.

I think the Cold War had caught up with Cyprus. We were non aligned and had friendly relations with the Eastern Block, and NATO felt threatened. I think we at times underestimate these influences. The partition of Cyprus was as much a NATO and US desire behind the scenes. They did not want another Cuba in the Med.

We played with fire, and got burnt. We are as much victims of the US and Soviet Cold War.

Cyprus should have attempted to join NATO in 1960. Then and only then, a Turkish invasion can not occur.

Unfortunately, some Cypriots carry on with their anti NATO sloganeering, but there is little substance and no rationality.

So much of what you say is so very true: for a long time I have thought what you have said and expressed so well.

I think any attempt to acheive Enosis with Greece (irrespective of whther or not it affected the Kibrilisi and indeed irrespective of whether there were Kibrilisi ) at anytime since the mid 50's would no doubt have triggered an Invasion, however absent a minority allegedly ethnically related group Turkey could claim it was protecting, invasion would have to have been dressed up in some other way to disguise the naked act of aggression that it was.

I am still of the view that the Coup (or Greek Invasion as Big Mak declared it) was more for the benefit of the Greek Colonels and Greek Geopolitical interests not because of any fillial affection of Greeks towards Cypriots, rather I wonder how much of a one way sreet that was.

To little has been said about Big Mak's delusions of adequacy as a world statesman and I thoroughly agree with your analysis of the cold war situation.

You mean where we were best mates with Russia and Cuba, etc.? Did anything change?

[supporttheunderdog]

2.21 AM many are asleep.

No Coup and Turkey would not had the cheap excuse it needed to justify an invasion - something it had been probably contemplating since 1954 when I beleive Turkey first began to interfere in Cyprus. Turkey's interest in the Island has probably never seriously considered the interests of the Kibrilisi, who in the period 1958 to 1974 were (whether they knew it or not, and willing or otherwise) pawns of Turkey. The only interest Turkey has was in preventing Cyprus falling into Greek hands, arising out of the long standing emnity with Greece, since Greek independance in the 1830's. and more particuklarly since events post World War one, that in the early 1950's were well within the living memory of many Turks.

Thrown in other geopolitical issues, such as the cold war, Arab nationalism with Suez, etc, the Arab Israeli conflict, etc., etc, and US perceptions (correct or otherwise) about Big Mak and the Soviets, and you have the recipe for 1974.

However no coup, probably no invasion.

Not so sure about that mate.

Sure, the coup was convenient for the Turks, in somehow giving 'some justification' to the invasion, but I believe an invasion would've occured regardless. In fact, I think Turkey even admitted that they would've invaded even if there was no TC community on the island.

I think the Cold War had caught up with Cyprus. We were non aligned and had friendly relations with the Eastern Block, and NATO felt threatened. I think we at times underestimate these influences. The partition of Cyprus was as much a NATO and US desire behind the scenes. They did not want another Cuba in the Med.

We played with fire, and got burnt. We are as much victims of the US and Soviet Cold War.

Cyprus should have attempted to join NATO in 1960. Then and only then, a Turkish invasion can not occur.

Unfortunately, some Cypriots carry on with their anti NATO sloganeering, but there is little substance and no rationality.

So much of what you say is so very true: for a long time I have thought what you have said and expressed so well.

I think any attempt to acheive Enosis with Greece (irrespective of whther or not it affected the Kibrilisi and indeed irrespective of whether there were Kibrilisi ) at anytime since the mid 50's would no doubt have triggered an Invasion, however absent a minority allegedly ethnically related group Turkey could claim it was protecting, invasion would have to have been dressed up in some other way to disguise the naked act of aggression that it was.

I am still of the view that the Coup (or Greek Invasion as Big Mak declared it) was more for the benefit of the Greek Colonels and Greek Geopolitical interests not because of any fillial affection of Greeks towards Cypriots, rather I wonder how much of a one way sreet that was.

To little has been said about Big Mak's delusions of adequacy as a world statesman and I thoroughly agree with your analysis of the cold war situation.

You mean where we were best mates with Russia and Cuba, etc.? Did anything change?

Not yet, and this is possibly why we do not get enough American backing, as we aren still too cozy with people like Cuba, Syria, etc. IMHO That was Big mak's problem and IMHO it is Chris Toffeearse's mistake too.

[Capt J Sparrow]

2.21 AM many are asleep.

No Coup and Turkey would not had the cheap excuse it needed to justify an invasion - something it had been probably contemplating since 1954 when I beleive Turkey first began to interfere in Cyprus. Turkey's interest in the Island has probably never seriously considered the interests of the Kibrilisi, who in the period 1958 to 1974 were (whether they knew it or not, and willing or otherwise) pawns of Turkey. The only interest Turkey has was in preventing Cyprus falling into Greek hands, arising out of the long standing emnity with Greece, since Greek independance in the 1830's. and more particuklarly since events post World War one, that in the early 1950's were well within the living memory of many Turks.

Thrown in other geopolitical issues, such as the cold war, Arab nationalism with Suez, etc, the Arab Israeli conflict, etc., etc, and US perceptions (correct or otherwise) about Big Mak and the Soviets, and you have the recipe for 1974.

However no coup, probably no invasion.

Not so sure about that mate.

Sure, the coup was convenient for the Turks, in somehow giving 'some justification' to the invasion, but I believe an invasion would've occured regardless. In fact, I think Turkey even admitted that they would've invaded even if there was no TC community on the island.

I think the Cold War had caught up with Cyprus. We were non aligned and had friendly relations with the Eastern Block, and NATO felt threatened. I think we at times underestimate these influences. The partition of Cyprus was as much a NATO and US desire behind the scenes. They did not want another Cuba in the Med.

We played with fire, and got burnt. We are as much victims of the US and Soviet Cold War.

Cyprus should have attempted to join NATO in 1960. Then and only then, a Turkish invasion can not occur.

Unfortunately, some Cypriots carry on with their anti NATO sloganeering, but there is little substance and no rationality.

So much of what you say is so very true: for a long time I have thought what you have said and expressed so well.

I think any attempt to acheive Enosis with Greece (irrespective of whther or not it affected the Kibrilisi and indeed irrespective of whether there were Kibrilisi ) at anytime since the mid 50's would no doubt have triggered an Invasion, however absent a minority allegedly ethnically related group Turkey could claim it was protecting, invasion would have to have been dressed up in some other way to disguise the naked act of aggression that it was.

I am still of the view that the Coup (or Greek Invasion as Big Mak declared it) was more for the benefit of the Greek Colonels and Greek Geopolitical interests not because of any fillial affection of Greeks towards Cypriots, rather I wonder how much of a one way sreet that was.

To little has been said about Big Mak's delusions of adequacy as a world statesman and I thoroughly agree with your analysis of the cold war situation.

You mean where we were best mates with Russia and Cuba, etc.? Did anything change?

Not yet, and this is possibly why we do not get enough American backing, as we aren still too cozy with people like Cuba, Syria, etc. IMHO That was Big mak's problem and IMHO it is Chris Toffeearse's mistake too.

This is the problem with Cypriot politics. Our politicians, just like politicians elsewhere, are hungry for power.

And no, Makarios was NOT a statesman, no matter how many Cypriots think otherwise. He had to appease the Communists to stay in power, and that's what he did.

If he were a statesman, then he would have told them to take a hike, so that he can act in a fashion which would be of benefit to the fledgling Cypriot nation and the greater good of the people. And that would be to stick with those that matter in our region - NATO and the West and keep distant to the Eastern Block.

If he did this, then Cyprus would quite possibly be a NATO member today, and the invasion would never have occurred. We would have had a stable nation, and Cypriots would be more prosperous. Then, we could consider him a Statesman.

He was inadequate as a politician, made many mistakes which cost us dearly. He was not the only one of course. But this was the political landscape at the time. Many people were illiterate peasants, were poor and very religious. And because he is a priest, many believed he would be a good President. Not so. And most Cypriots know this but don't want to accept it.

I'm probably going to get flamed for this view, but this is my opinion.

Even today, our politicians make the same stupid mistakes. I mean, fancy having good relations with the likes of Assad's Syria, Iran or Cuba? Even to this day, many Cypriots wished that Qaddafi was still in power. Why? Because the West didn't want him anymore. And to hell with those he annihilated.

This is the stupid political landscape of Cyprus and this is our irrational political mentality. And it has bought our country to its knees.

[CBBB]

Jack, have you been to Delphi recently?