Cyprus-Forum.com

[Dhavlos]

no, i agree with you, the TCs are just as guilty, if not more, than the Gcs of 'opposing' this 'cypriotness'.

Sadly, the TCs do not trust the GCs, however, i hope that the ideal of 'cypriotness' would be the catalyst of a solution, and not a 'forced' result of a solution.

[ELLAS H TEFRA!]

no, i agree with you, the TCs are just as guilty, if not more, than the Gcs of 'opposing' this 'cypriotness'.

Sadly, the TCs do not trust the GCs, however, i hope that the ideal of 'cypriotness' would be the catalyst of a solution, and not a 'forced' result of a solution.

I dont know the political standpoints of the rest of the users, but unfortunately from my experience as an active APOEL supporter (right wing affeliated) the largest part of the fans seem to be "hanging" on to their Greek background.

Assuming that is the case and I am not mistaken, the Apollon Limasson fans are even worse, and I am not sure about those refugees that support Anorthosis. I know that to relate our debate with football fan associations might seem pointless in any other country in the world, but in Cyprus it is a perfect way of making certain assumptions and reaching coherent conclusions.

Then again many might disagree!

[Dhavlos]

Well, i see what you mean, but i hope that Cy[rus will be able to deal with this, like the UK did with 'football hooligans'.

I know it seems a bit of a despirate link, but if the 'extremism'(pardon the word used but i cant think of any other) in england was able to be gotten rid of, then i would hope that cyprus can over come that too, and so football can really become a 'national' pasttime, where women/children/OAPs, can enjoy a game knowing that they will not be causght up in violence, that sadly can ruin a great sport.

I would hope that teams could encourage this type of 'cypriot' spirit, through some kind of initiative/academy for TCs and GCs, and encourage TC/GCs to play together.....its only a small thing, but it could eventually work.

[cypezokyli]

If you dont see the move with the missiles as something that strengthened our position in the international arena and in terms of joining Europe then you need to widen your views on international politics. Unless you actually believe that the USA and NATO interests do not have a bearing on EU accesion negotiations. If thats the case then my friend you have a long way to go towards understanding the way actually things work

explain to me bc i dont have a clue about international politics. it seems that your views are quite wide.
the missiles have sthrengthen our position in terms of joinings europe?
for which europe are we actually talking about?
the missiles have opened our way to europe?
in what sense?
in what way?
which other country ever needed missiles (bying and cancelling) to enter the eu?
how did we convince germany france italy spain (all nato members) to accept us after bying and cancelling misiles?
widen my views on international politics bc i really dont seem to get you

as for the USA and NATO having a bearing on the EU, there is no diasagreement on that.
it is the connection with the missiles that i still dont get.

do you honestly think that the USA and NATO helped us in entering the EU after cancelling the missiles?
or are u trying to say that we blackmailed EU or NATO or the USA and they gave us EU admission in return?

please help me in my long way to understand you.
pleaseeeeee.
explain to me
give me the scenario, the logic and the sequence so we can understand each other.

does word Helsinki tell u sth by the way?

as for clerides

This can be translated into: He was inline with our ideologies or even claimed to be (as u suggested) for decades, but when it came down to the most crucial decision he was "punished" for making the wrong choice!

firstly, it is not important what i suggested
second, i didnot suggest what his ideology is. i (unlike you) proven (with facts) what he already suggested in 1974 (unless ofcource u want to challange the source on the name of non-patriotism, without ofcource providing a different one)
thirdly

to try and explain to me that he negotiated the whole thing so that you can make your point is insulting since you imply that I was not aware of this untill now

he was in line with your ideologies for years (as you suggest)
but,
he was the one who negotiated the aplan
which,
if i am not mistaken was against your ideologies
and
u still voted for him

can you see the paradox or should i make it more clear?

[ELLAS H TEFRA!]

Well, i see what you mean, but i hope that Cy[rus will be able to deal with this, like the UK did with 'football hooligans'.

I know it seems a bit of a despirate link, but if the 'extremism'(pardon the word used but i cant think of any other) in england was able to be gotten rid of, then i would hope that cyprus can over come that too, and so football can really become a 'national' pasttime, where women/children/OAPs, can enjoy a game knowing that they will not be causght up in violence, that sadly can ruin a great sport.

I would hope that teams could encourage this type of 'cypriot' spirit, through some kind of initiative/academy for TCs and GCs, and encourage TC/GCs to play together.....its only a small thing, but it could eventually work.

You misunderstood my point..i was not simply referring to the more agressive supporters who indorce violence and "hooliganism".

If it was just them , we would not be talking about this right now. It is more serious. I am talking about normal family men and women who do not act on these feelings, but tend to sit back and justify that we should embrace our Greekness rather than anything else!

During football you can onserve the population in a very special environment, and you can draw upon several available evidence to reach certain conclusions. The way people talk about certain things, the way they react etc.

It is a very public place where you can get some sort of understanding upon the "real" issues, and allthough its a bit farfetched, I find it usefull.

For example, when a Salamina player who is T/C entered the pitch last year for the first time, their was a "riot" on the stands, and this was a reaction from all the fans, of all ages!

[Dhavlos]

justify that we should embrace our Greekness rather than anything else

that is what needs to be takled

well, maybe the state needs to encourage 'cypriotness'....maybe state-sponsored initiatives of some sort?

Maybe the football teams/mangers/directors need to promote cypriotness.

Nowadays, black players in england have got very far, in terms of acceptance, since the days of John Barnes. I would hope the same kind of thing to encourage this could help cypriot football in such a way( ?)

the church also has a lot to answer for.

The institutions that cypriots interact with, need to encourage cypriotness.

Just because we speak greek, does not make us 'greeks',just as speaking 'english' does not make the americans 'english'

[ELLAS H TEFRA!]

If you dont see the move with the missiles as something that strengthened our position in the international arena and in terms of joining Europe then you need to widen your views on international politics. Unless you actually believe that the USA and NATO interests do not have a bearing on EU accesion negotiations. If thats the case then my friend you have a long way to go towards understanding the way actually things work

explain to me bc i dont have a clue about international politics. it seems that your views are quite wide.
the missiles have sthrengthen our position in terms of joinings europe?
for which europe are we actually talking about?
the missiles have opened our way to europe?
in what sense?
in what way?
which other country ever needed missiles (bying and cancelling) to enter the eu?
how did we convince germany france italy spain (all nato members) to accept us after bying and cancelling misiles?
widen my views on international politics bc i really dont seem to get you

as for the USA and NATO having a bearing on the EU, there is no diasagreement on that.
it is the connection with the missiles that i still dont get.

do you honestly think that the USA and NATO helped us in entering the EU after cancelling the missiles?
or are u trying to say that we blackmailed EU or NATO or the USA and they gave us EU admission in return?

please help me in my long way to understand you.
pleaseeeeee.
explain to me
give me the scenario, the logic and the sequence so we can understand each other.

does word Helsinki tell u sth by the way?

as for clerides

This can be translated into: He was inline with our ideologies or even claimed to be (as u suggested) for decades, but when it came down to the most crucial decision he was "punished" for making the wrong choice!

firstly, it is not important what i suggested
second, i didnot suggest what his ideology is. i (unlike you) proven (with facts) what he already suggested in 1974 (unless ofcource u want to challange the source on the name of non-patriotism, without ofcource providing a different one)
thirdly

to try and explain to me that he negotiated the whole thing so that you can make your point is insulting since you imply that I was not aware of this untill now

he was in line with your ideologies for years (as you suggest)
but,
he was the one who negotiated the aplan
which,
if i am not mistaken was against your ideologies
and
u still voted for him

can you see the paradox or should i make it more clear?

There is no paradox. I have made everything clear in my last post. Both, why I voted for him and why he was inline with our ideologies.

It has been clear to us that no matter what there would come a point that we would have to live side by side with the TC's. This was never in dispute.
The reason he was inline with the ideology is a simple one.
Since there is no way out of such a solution, I would rather have someone who has stronger ties with Greece, and is far more accepting and in regognition of our Greek ethnicity in general rather than the leftists who instead burn the flag every chance they get.

You seem to base your whole argument on the assumption that Clerides promised a new form or better a modernised model of Enosis with Greece, but instead he always believed that we would have to live side by side.

Are you serious?? This could not even come from a comic book! I remember him preaching that the "road" to Enosis has been diverted and that we "will be united under a common European flag". I never believed that he preached war, partition, or anyhting of the sort.

Have we not joined Greece under a European flag? Has he not provided the only "serious" and internationaly aknowledged reunification plan??

If you have this notion that we were voting for him simply cause we thought that one day he would lead us into battle you are more blind than I thought.


As far as the missiles are concerned! If you dont see them as a negotiating tool then again, you still have much to learn. To avert an international incident envolving two NATO members (Greece and Turkey) in the Middle East, with British Sovereign bases in the middle, and one country being a member of the EU, is not reason enough to boost EU accesion negotiations and better our chances?!

What maniacal US-Greek-EU bureaucrat and commander in chief would make such a choice?? Not even Bush could have been so stupid. You wish to look at it as a move simply to gain votes then that is your choice! But, it is also by choice and ability that you educate yourself enough to "read between the lines" as far as international politics is concerned!

Maybe now that we have joined the EU you can afford better education.

[ELLAS H TEFRA!]

justify that we should embrace our Greekness rather than anything else

that is what needs to be takled

well, maybe the state needs to encourage 'cypriotness'....maybe state-sponsored initiatives of some sort?

Maybe the football teams/mangers/directors need to promote cypriotness.

Nowadays, black players in england have got very far, in terms of acceptance, since the days of John Barnes. I would hope the same kind of thing to encourage this could help cypriot football in such a way( ?)

the church also has a lot to answer for.

The institutions that cypriots interact with, need to encourage cypriotness.

Just because we speak greek, does not make us 'greeks',just as speaking 'english' does not make the americans 'english'

I think rather than trying to enforce people to disregard their ethnic background, we should simply educate the masses that in a time of heightened Globalisation and advanced interaction between people on a Global scale it is wrong to hold such cleavages as "negotiating tools".

Perhaps the notion of a Global civil society approach could come in handy, but I am afraid we do not have the neccesary expertice and aknowledged academics and politicians to lead such a campaign.

Perhaps if all troops (Greek, GC-dismandled, Turkish) would just live the island, but still keep some sort of border for a couple of years so that negotiations could start without the shadow of the troops casted upon us then maybe we can agree on a better plan.

Maybe a UN led and supported separating line could prove useful.

[Dhavlos]

what you say does make sense.

Maybe people could in the future have a 'civil' loyalty to the cypriot state, but be 'emotionally' attached to the 'motherlands'-like now. It would not be perfect, but could work.

[cypezokyli]

Please dont dispute what I have just told you abour XRYSH AUGH, because I will not even bother answering.

I SAY AGAIN, I KNOW!

even though that already sais a lot, lets play a little bit more.

ok. first of all i accept that u r the clever and i am the stupid.
i accept the superiority of your british education and your genes.
would your wise majesty be willing to share its unique knowlwedge with the rest of us?

It has been clear to us that no matter what there would come a point that we would have to live side by side with the TC's. This was never in dispute.
The reason he was inline with the ideology is a simple one.
Since there is no way out of such a solution, I would rather have someone who has stronger ties with Greece, and is far more accepting and in regognition of our Greek ethnicity in general rather than the leftists who instead burn the flag every chance they get.

and u have proved exactly my point. thanks

As far as the missiles are concerned! If you dont see them as a negotiating tool then again, you still have much to learn. To avert an international incident envolving two NATO members (Greece and Turkey) in the Middle East, with British Sovereign bases in the middle, and one country being a member of the EU, is not reason enough to boost EU accesion negotiations and better our chances?!

What maniacal US-Greek-EU bureaucrat and commander in chief would make such a choice?? Not even Bush could have been so stupid. You wish to look at it as a move simply to gain votes then that is your choice! But, it is also by choice and ability that you educate yourself enough to "read between the lines" as far as international politics is concerned!

Maybe now that we have joined the EU you can afford better education

as before. u know its getting tiring.
once upon a time we ordered missiles, then we canceeled them, as a result we got in the EU.
once again u r the clever and i have no education (lets dont forget that so we dont have in the next posts)

explain to me once again. the sequence of events and the relations between the missiles and the EU accession. give me a scenario to understand.
its not that difficult. it starts somehow like this. we order some expensive missiles as a result this happened who lead to that and we cancelled them and as a concequenceof that in relation with that other... we got in the EU.
u either have the ability to do that or not

and by the way i would expect the sources if we will make a serious political discussion

idou i rodos....

ps (if in the next post u just advertise your knowledge with no FACTS, i ll take it as inability to answer)