Cyprus-Forum.com

[wyoming cowboy]

returning Famagusta to the Gc refugees who were ethnically cleansed by the turk army, would go a long way in my opinion to solving the cyprus problem. 1. it would show to the Gc's that turkey is serious about a solution. 2. it would be an achievement in Turk maturity that Turkey is capable of compromise and can change/metamorph itself into a western oriented democracy. 3. It would enhance trust on the negotiating table among the gc/tc

[Nikitas]

Do not hold your breath. There is a hard core, and politically powerful section of colonists who have formulated theories of ownership of Famagusta, claiming it to be Evkaf land and all manner of bullshit theories.

Historical fact, as recorded in 1878 by Thomson, the first British official to visit the island and write about it, was that the Turks regarded the walled city as the prize and had expelled the GCs to the low lying swampy area outside. As Thomson points out, the GCs showed enterprise and creativity and turned this part into a thriving town. His writing, back in 1878, is revealing about the area, the town and local culture. Obviously the useless and barren sand dunes were NOT desired by any TC back then and definitely not by Evkaf.

It takes a radical change in Turkish policy to return any land. The pashas of Ankara are still caught in a time warp, thinking that they will revive a neo ottoman caliphate in the area. Conquest of land is a cornerstone of this idiotic policy. Obviously they have not read Mao's writings about not rejoicing in the capture of land, or not lamenting its loss. In a long term struggle it is other things that count.

History has a way of biting you in the ass. They excluded GCs from what in the 1970s was considered the richest part of the island. For instance, it contained 85 per cent of the island's mining wealth. Now the Law of the Sea comes along and grants the south an EEZ that stretches half way to Egypt, while the north stretches 20 miles to the mid point to Turkey. And not only that, the south is a full member of the EU and its rights safeguarded by the EU aquis. All member nations of the EU sign the Law of the Sea convention and cannot deny its validity, in effect all 27 members of the EU stand behind Cyprus on the issue.

I am a native of Famagusta, it is the place where I grew up and where all my friends lived. Naturally I want it reopened and full of people. But in the grand scheme of things, and compared to the opportunities presented by the oil and gas exploration in a huge EEZ, Famagusta pales into insignificance. Any attempt to swap the drilling for oil and gas for a return of the town is a no go for me and for most Famagustians. Have no doubt at al that this will be the choice presented. Turks are not known for their magnanimity, everything is subject to a deal and exchange. They will want to deal on Famagusta, their ace card. However, history shows that they can take the ace card and shove it. Remember, they are the ones that keep talking about how we should accept new realities. The new reality is that Cyprus has a new maritime territory that multiplies its area and its status. Coming now to play the emotional card of a home town is too little too late. We have learnt to do without our home town for a generation, we can last much longer if necessary.

[B25]

Do not hold your breath. There is a hard core, and politically powerful section of colonists who have formulated theories of ownership of Famagusta, claiming it to be Evkaf land and all manner of bullshit theories.

Historical fact, as recorded in 1878 by Thomson, the first British official to visit the island and write about it, was that the Turks regarded the walled city as the prize and had expelled the GCs to the low lying swampy area outside. As Thomson points out, the GCs showed enterprise and creativity and turned this part into a thriving town. His writing, back in 1878, is revealing about the area, the town and local culture. Obviously the useless and barren sand dunes were NOT desired by any TC back then and definitely not by Evkaf.

It takes a radical change in Turkish policy to return any land. The pashas of Ankara are still caught in a time warp, thinking that they will revive a neo ottoman caliphate in the area. Conquest of land is a cornerstone of this idiotic policy. Obviously they have not read Mao's writings about not rejoicing in the capture of land, or not lamenting its loss. In a long term struggle it is other things that count.

History has a way of biting you in the ass. They excluded GCs from what in the 1970s was considered the richest part of the island. For instance, it contained 85 per cent of the island's mining wealth. Now the Law of the Sea comes along and grants the south an EEZ that stretches half way to Egypt, while the north stretches 20 miles to the mid point to Turkey. And not only that, the south is a full member of the EU and its rights safeguarded by the EU aquis. All member nations of the EU sign the Law of the Sea convention and cannot deny its validity, in effect all 27 members of the EU stand behind Cyprus on the issue.

I am a native of Famagusta, it is the place where I grew up and where all my friends lived. Naturally I want it reopened and full of people. But in the grand scheme of things, and compared to the opportunities presented by the oil and gas exploration in a huge EEZ, Famagusta pales into insignificance. Any attempt to swap the drilling for oil and gas for a return of the town is a no go for me and for most Famagustians. Have no doubt at al that this will be the choice presented. Turks are not known for their magnanimity, everything is subject to a deal and exchange. They will want to deal on Famagusta, their ace card. However, history shows that they can take the ace card and shove it. Remember, they are the ones that keep talking about how we should accept new realities. The new reality is that Cyprus has a new maritime territory that multiplies its area and its status. Coming now to play the emotional card of a home town is too little too late. We have learnt to do without our home town for a generation, we can last much longer if necessary.

Nikita, very nicely put, bravo, excellent post.

[Pyrpolizer]

Do not hold your breath. There is a hard core, and politically powerful section of colonists who have formulated theories of ownership of Famagusta, claiming it to be Evkaf land and all manner of bullshit theories.

Historical fact, as recorded in 1878 by Thomson, the first British official to visit the island and write about it, was that the Turks regarded the walled city as the prize and had expelled the GCs to the low lying swampy area outside. As Thomson points out, the GCs showed enterprise and creativity and turned this part into a thriving town. His writing, back in 1878, is revealing about the area, the town and local culture. Obviously the useless and barren sand dunes were NOT desired by any TC back then and definitely not by Evkaf.

It takes a radical change in Turkish policy to return any land. The pashas of Ankara are still caught in a time warp, thinking that they will revive a neo ottoman caliphate in the area. Conquest of land is a cornerstone of this idiotic policy. Obviously they have not read Mao's writings about not rejoicing in the capture of land, or not lamenting its loss. In a long term struggle it is other things that count.

History has a way of biting you in the ass. They excluded GCs from what in the 1970s was considered the richest part of the island. For instance, it contained 85 per cent of the island's mining wealth. Now the Law of the Sea comes along and grants the south an EEZ that stretches half way to Egypt, while the north stretches 20 miles to the mid point to Turkey. And not only that, the south is a full member of the EU and its rights safeguarded by the EU aquis. All member nations of the EU sign the Law of the Sea convention and cannot deny its validity, in effect all 27 members of the EU stand behind Cyprus on the issue.

I am a native of Famagusta, it is the place where I grew up and where all my friends lived. Naturally I want it reopened and full of people. But in the grand scheme of things, and compared to the opportunities presented by the oil and gas exploration in a huge EEZ, Famagusta pales into insignificance. Any attempt to swap the drilling for oil and gas for a return of the town is a no go for me and for most Famagustians. Have no doubt at al that this will be the choice presented. Turks are not known for their magnanimity, everything is subject to a deal and exchange. They will want to deal on Famagusta, their ace card. However, history shows that they can take the ace card and shove it. Remember, they are the ones that keep talking about how we should accept new realities. The new reality is that Cyprus has a new maritime territory that multiplies its area and its status. Coming now to play the emotional card of a home town is too little too late. We have learnt to do without our home town for a generation, we can last much longer if necessary.

Well said Nikitas.
A couple of points I would like to add.
a)First the Ottomans actually massacred most of the Venetians inside the walls. I think they killed about 20,000. It was a mixture of Venetians+GCs that were expelled outside the city. In fact Varosh is a Turkish word meaning "outskirts"
b)I don't think the return of the barbed city of Famagusta will be so easily turned down, given the fact that our side has already given in writing her terms of accepting that.
c)Let's not think that even if we find gas/oil we will be rich.There are serious implications here that our sleeping government has not taken into account. It's not just the EEZ. It's also how the oil and gas are distributed under the sea. The same things happened in the Gulf, in fact there are Gulf countries that lie on the center of the pool and hence can only take out gas. Getting out gas however reduces the pressure required to get oil out. I can tell you for sure that if we eventually find something and start exploring, the next thing will be that either we or the others will be paying the rest to stop and there will certainly be quarrels... The most likely event is that there will be several pools under the sea, then comes the questions how many barrels a day each country pulls out from shared pools.
In the past I have read estimates about what income we could get from oil. Much to my surprise it was less than tourism. What shocked me however was the high risk of spoiling the beaches and losing all income from tourism.

[Hermes]

In the past I have read estimates about what income we could get from oil. Much to my surprise it was less than tourism. What shocked me however was the high risk of spoiling the beaches and losing all income from tourism.

I think it's not oil but natural gas that has the greater potential:

“The natural gas project could create employment and jobs and exporting natural gas would bring extra revenue, of course. Natural gas would also allow Cyprus to meet the EU environmental requirements.”


See this article:
http://www.coselle.com/resources/news/c ... s-exporter

[Hermes]

They will want to deal on Famagusta, their ace card. However, history shows that they can take the ace card and shove it. Remember, they are the ones that keep talking about how we should accept new realities. The new reality is that Cyprus has a new maritime territory that multiplies its area and its status. Coming now to play the emotional card of a home town is too little too late. We have learnt to do without our home town for a generation, we can last much longer if necessary.

Indeed. Trying to barter with the G/Cs over the return of Famagusta, now a derelict ruin, in exchange for "recognition" hasn't worked in the past and it won't work now. There is a deal on the table linking its return to the opening of the port under EU supervision, which has been rejected by Turkey. So Famagusta remains a hostage. But one which is increasingly pointless and worthless to the Turks and which merely serves to highlight the stupidity and vindictiveness of the occupation.

[cymart]

I don't believe it either but if it happens then great!Let them open Ercan Airport for direct flights and they will soon see that it is not viable,but that's their problem!Sorry Nikitas but we cannot wait any longer-how many people you knew from Varosha have died since 1974?And how many of their descendants still care?Time does heal all things -for better or worse!And it also makes change even more difficult.
As for the oil and gas,I hope there is none there-the planet is already dying from pollution anyway and we HAVE to use alternative energy sources or face extinction!

[CBBB]

I don't believe it either but if it happens then great!Let them open Ercan Airport for direct flights and they will soon see that it is not viable,but that's their problem!Sorry Nikitas but we cannot wait any longer-how many people you knew from Varosha have died since 1974?And how many of their descendants still care?Time does heal all things -for better or worse!And it also makes change even more difficult.
As for the oil and gas,I hope there is none there-the planet is already dying from pollution anyway and we HAVE to use alternative energy sources or face extinction!

Perhaps you should change your signature.

[cymart]

Maybe??
It's just that like with so many people,all these nationalistic statements and grandstanding from people north and south are becoming very boring to us and the impression gained is that maintaining this dispute by making demands which they know the other side will never accept is a way of keeping it going and maybe preserving the careers of politicians and journalists who would have nothing to do without the Cyprus Problem?
Instead of replying to every negative statement by Erdogan,Omirou,Eroglu,etc etc. it would be far more productive to just get on with the negotiations and hammer out the best compromise possible...unless of course,neither side wants a solution enough to do that?

[CBBB]

Maybe??
It's just that like with so many people,all these nationalistic statements and grandstanding from people north and south are becoming very boring to us and the impression gained is that maintaining this dispute by making demands which they know the other side will never accept is a way of keeping it going and maybe preserving the careers of politicians and journalists who would have nothing to do without the Cyprus Problem?
Instead of replying to every negative statement by Erdogan,Omirou,Eroglu,etc etc. it would be far more productive to just get on with the negotiations and hammer out the best compromise possible...unless of course,neither side wants a solution enough to do that?

It was the "and have prospects with a new leadership" that I was worried about. Prospects for what, to f everything up?