Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

The USA's creation was based on, Invasion and Occupation, Ethnic Cleansing, Human Rights violations, stolen property, Corruption, change of demographics by the flood of settlers, no Rule of Law for a long time

Since then humanity has developed a body of international law, conventions and institutions to protect the rights of sovereign nations and citizens against such injustice. You cannot defend the existence of the "TRNC" by appealing to human barbarism of the past and saying "Look how barbaric people once behaved. Therefore it's okay for us to be barbarians".

The whole point is that we should put the barbarism of the "trnc" and its awful creation behind us. Not use it as typical of human degradation at its historical worst and excuse it on those grounds.

Why dont you take this up with the Americans or Australians???? You physically lost the north forever in 1974, time you realized that.

[Viewpoint]

Other New Countries

Thirteen other countries became independent through a variety of causes.

March 21, 1990 - Namibia became independent of South Africa.
May 22, 1990 - North and South Yemen merged to form a unified Yemen.
October 3, 1990 - East Germany and West Germany merged to form a unified Germany after the fall of the Iron Curtain.
September 17, 1991 - The Marshall Islands was part of the Trust Territory of Pacific Islands (administered by the United States) and gained independence as a former colony.
September 17, 1991 - Micronesia, previously known as the Caroline Islands, became independent from the United States.
January 1, 1993 - The Czech Republic and Slovakia became independent nations when Czechoslovakia dissolved.
May 25, 1993 - Eritrea was a part of Ethiopia but seceded and gained independence.
October 1, 1994 - Palau was part of the Trust Territory of Pacific Islands (administered by the United States) and gained independence as a former colony.
May 20, 2002 - East Timor (Timor-Leste) declared independence from Portugal in 1975 but did not became independent from Indonesia until 2002.
June 3, 2006 - Montenegro was part of Serbia and Montenegro (also known as Yugoslavia) but gained independence after a referendum.
June 5, 2006 - Serbia became its own entity after Montenegro split.
Febraury 17, 2008 - Kosovo unilaterally declared independence from Serbia.
July 9, 2011 - South Sudan peacefully seceded from Sudan following a January 2011 referendum. Sudan itself was the first to recognize South Sudan and did so one day early, on July 8, 2011.

If they can do it why not us?

[Kikapu]

Other New Countries

Thirteen other countries became independent through a variety of causes.

March 21, 1990 - Namibia became independent of South Africa.
May 22, 1990 - North and South Yemen merged to form a unified Yemen.
October 3, 1990 - East Germany and West Germany merged to form a unified Germany after the fall of the Iron Curtain.
September 17, 1991 - The Marshall Islands was part of the Trust Territory of Pacific Islands (administered by the United States) and gained independence as a former colony.
September 17, 1991 - Micronesia, previously known as the Caroline Islands, became independent from the United States.
January 1, 1993 - The Czech Republic and Slovakia became independent nations when Czechoslovakia dissolved.
May 25, 1993 - Eritrea was a part of Ethiopia but seceded and gained independence.
October 1, 1994 - Palau was part of the Trust Territory of Pacific Islands (administered by the United States) and gained independence as a former colony.
May 20, 2002 - East Timor (Timor-Leste) declared independence from Portugal in 1975 but did not became independent from Indonesia until 2002.
June 3, 2006 - Montenegro was part of Serbia and Montenegro (also known as Yugoslavia) but gained independence after a referendum.
June 5, 2006 - Serbia became its own entity after Montenegro split.
Febraury 17, 2008 - Kosovo unilaterally declared independence from Serbia.
July 9, 2011 - South Sudan peacefully seceded from Sudan following a January 2011 referendum. Sudan itself was the first to recognize South Sudan and did so one day early, on July 8, 2011.

If they can do it why not us?

Cyprus did not agree to split and the RoC continues to retrains 100% of her territory, backed by the UN, the EU and the rest of the world, therefore your examples are useless. The only one who does not back the RoC, is the one who is illegally occupying parts of Cyprus by force. Even the majority TCs back the RoC, since they have all received RoC passports.

[DTA]

To be honest yes it is a lot better than what is being described here, in fact what has been described here is far far away from the reality of what the trnc is. that doesnt mean it doesn't have it's problems but so does every nation on earth.

The "trnc's" creation was based on, Invasion and Occupation, Ethnic Cleansing, Human Rights violations, UN Resolutions violations,, stolen property, Corruption, change of demographics by the flood of settlers, no Rule of Law, etc, etc, etc, and you people expect the north to act morally civilized.

The "trnc" is no different than what the Wild West was in the 19th century USA .

You know nothing of the the trnc at all, have you ever been there if not please keep out of conversations within which you do not belong or have any base of knowledge in. I have only been to the south once, and I would never be so arrogant to say what it is like. But you pass comments on somewhere you have never been.

Unjustified arrogance is a curse - as we say: may it pass.

Oh look who out to defend the indefensible.

Which part of what I wrote is incorrect, DTA?

This is what VP said below. Why aren't you arguing with him, because VP agreed with me in what I wrote, or did you miss that, like you miss most things that are written on the forum.

Exactly the same all over the world.

If I miss things on this forum, it is because I am busy and have a life, I pop in and out of this forum and only really post if it is something that I feel strongly about.

Like I have said before we obviously dont get on, I dont reply to your comments unless you reply to mine - so for the sake of not arguing because its pointless and time consuming lets go back to not communicated with each other

but before I do look what I have done with your quote - please tell me which part of it is wrong:

The USA's creation was based on, Invasion and Occupation, Ethnic Cleansing, Human Rights violations, stolen property, Corruption, change of demographics by the flood of settlers, no Rule of Law for a long time

Trying to be a smart-ass is not going to get you anywhere fast, other than make yourself look very foolish, because you have just demonstrated by contradicting yourself, that what I wrote was in fact true. What happened in the USA before the establishment of the UN charter in 1945 is not the same as what happened in Cyprus in 1974 and since. Just one more important event you seem to have missed in trying to make a pathetic point. Perhaps you are more suited to debate with those on C44. They would think you are Einstein with your wealth of knowledge and the understanding you give towards the illegal and morally corrupted "trnc", or you can debate here without throwing hissy fit every five minutes. It's getting rather tiring in dealing with your "feminine side" emotions all the time. I hope I wasn't too insensitive to your feelings......................again? [/quote]


Hurt my feelings? that is something you are incapable of kiks the reason I keep saying we should not talk is I don't like your attitude, you are a not very smart, extremely arrogant individual who I would guess is very lonely, and unfulfilled in your real life. If you wernt so arrogant I would actually feel sorry for you.

I don't want to correspond with you because to 'internet argue' with an individual such as your self is benief me - I don't want to know anything you have to say - your comments only annoy or bore me, you only get the attention you do on here because you are soo ridiculously bias in favour of the gcs who happen to be the majority on this website - which must give your sad existence some sense of small worth.

So pretty please with sugar on top don't respond to me - I don't want to know.

[Hermes]

You cannot defend the existence of the "TRNC" by appealing to human barbarism of the past and saying "Look how barbaric people once behaved. Therefore it's okay for us to be barbarians".

Why dont you take this up with the Americans or Australians???? You physically lost the north forever in 1974, time you realized that.

I think you missed the point of my post. It won't be the first time...

As for having "lost the north forever", I think you are being a bit premature. Turkey can only hang on to the north with the presence of thousands of troops, maintaining a huge garrison at great expense, economically and diplomatically. Unless Turkey can keep its EU accession path open, those who are already questioning Turkey's NATO membership will grow in number and Western investors, who make up the majority of foreign investors in Turkey, will pull the plug on them. Turkey will find it very hard to go it alone.

Try and remember that next time you feel like shouting about how Turkey's occupation of the north has some kind of permanence to it. It's only because you know that Turkey's grip on the north is so precarious that you're on here every day trying to convince others. Of course, what you are really doing here every day is, first of all, trying to convince yourself...

[Positive Vibe]

Again pretty much like any other country.

Totally incorrect. The "TRNC" is not like any other country. It is not even a "country" as it is unrecognised. The international community has made a stand against the "TRNC" and declared it an illegal, pariah state. The UN has urged nations to have nothing to do with it. To not even recognise it as a "country".

The "TRNC" is outcast. It is beyond law, beyond acceptability. It cannot even be said to exist. The "TRNC" is persona non-grata. It is literally a place that is not welcome on the face of the earth. That is not "like any other country". It is like no country on earth. Literally.

This is too radical for my tastes.

You do not go about solving problems by telling your enemy that he shouldn't exist. Where does this stuff come from? If you're taking a page off of Palestine's book then perhaps you need to back off and cool down.

To make it clear, I don't think DTA is being entirely rational either but when I'm forced at gunpoint to make an choice between a really stinky arguement and a plain old stinky one then it's only obvious which one I'll go for.

The reallity of the matter is that Cyprus AS A WHOLE stands to gain or lose a lot. TC's telling the world that everything is alright and the status quo is acceptable to them are being insincere, dishonest and downright ignroant.

And any GC saying that they're comfortable with having spewing rethoric over and over again, and in the procress risking the north's interest being permentanly intertwind with Ankara are a bunch of imbicils. Maybe one side has more to fear then the other but the bottom line is that both sides have a lot to fear because it's a high stakes game. And avoiding the discussion and spouting the obvious helps no cause.

If the thread is about "T/C's are worse off then ever" then you can bet your behind that I'll be listening what fellow human TC's have to say on the matter, but at the same time I will attempt to see through the bias and consider all aspects.

I only feel a few people are being reasonable and the rest are letting emotions and rethoric get the better of them.

[halil]

Again pretty much like any other country.

Totally incorrect. The "TRNC" is not like any other country. It is not even a "country" as it is unrecognised. The international community has made a stand against the "TRNC" and declared it an illegal, pariah state. The UN has urged nations to have nothing to do with it. To not even recognise it as a "country".

The "TRNC" is outcast. It is beyond law, beyond acceptability. It cannot even be said to exist. The "TRNC" is persona non-grata. It is literally a place that is not welcome on the face of the earth. That is not "like any other country". It is like no country on earth. Literally.

This is too radical for my tastes.

You do not go about solving problems by telling your enemy that he shouldn't exist. Where does this stuff come from? If you're taking a page off of Palestine's book then perhaps you need to back off and cool down.

To make it clear, I don't think DTA is being entirely rational either but when I'm forced at gunpoint to make an choice between a really stinky arguement and a plain old stinky one then it's only obvious which one I'll go for.

The reallity of the matter is that Cyprus AS A WHOLE stands to gain or lose a lot. TC's telling the world that everything is alright and the status quo is acceptable to them are being insincere, dishonest and downright ignroant.

And any GC saying that they're comfortable with having spewing rethoric over and over again, and in the procress risking the north's interest being permentanly intertwind with Ankara are a bunch of imbicils. Maybe one side has more to fear then the other but the bottom line is that both sides have a lot to fear because it's a high stakes game. And avoiding the discussion and spouting the obvious helps no cause.

If the thread is about "T/C's are worse off then ever" then you can bet your behind that I'll be listening what fellow human TC's have to say on the matter, but at the same time I will attempt to see through the bias and consider all aspects.

I only feel a few people are being reasonable and the rest are letting emotions and rethoric get the better of them.

thanks for the positive, creative comments u made ..... i don't think there will be any TC not uprising about this thread.
People are always compares their past days and present days ....fear and trust comes first. TC's all knows status will not go forever like today. but by ignoring them everyday only helping go away from what they used to believe ....GC's have to be convincing that they really cares about the TC's...people are questioning where were u before ? that time why u didn't bother for us....lots of our people were immigrating to UK, Australia or rest of the other places ....they gone ....why ? for their own and families safety and to feed their families.....
to show now that u are caring for us doesn!t make sense now to me .......thats why i am questioning what lieing behind this interest on us.....worring about us !!!!

[DTA]

Positive vibe I respect your style of writing and stance you take. I don't know how I have been irrational but if I come over as such that is not my intention.

A couple of points if i may and tell me if you agree with them:

1. The premise of this thread 'the tcs have never had it worse' is a complete joke does anybody that can think for themselves at all and who is not commited to spreading propaganda say that today the tcs existence is worse then when we were forced in to enclaves which comprised of 2% of the island, fearing for our lives on a daily baisis?

2 I think that I have made it clear that the trnc is not perfect there are problems that need resolving - and as an aside I would like to believe that a compromise could be reached that would alow for a BBF with political equality- but the trnc as it stands is not the place it is being made out to be in treads like this, it's just not - and this is from someone who goes regularly and has family who lives there.

I may be making my self look stupid here as you may infact be a tc yourself but I will make the offer anyway:
Ask me about the trnc and I will give you my honest answers as far as my knowledge allows me to, and then we may develop a better understanding.

[Kikapu]

If I miss things on this forum, it is because I am busy and have a life, I pop in and out of this forum and only really post if it is something that I feel strongly about.

Like I have said before we obviously dont get on, I dont reply to your comments unless you reply to mine - so for the sake of not arguing because its pointless and time consuming lets go back to not communicated with each other

but before I do look what I have done with your quote - please tell me which part of it is wrong:

The USA's creation was based on, Invasion and Occupation, Ethnic Cleansing, Human Rights violations, stolen property, Corruption, change of demographics by the flood of settlers, no Rule of Law for a long time

Trying to be a smart-ass is not going to get you anywhere fast, other than make yourself look very foolish, because you have just demonstrated by contradicting yourself, that what I wrote was in fact true. What happened in the USA before the establishment of the UN charter in 1945 is not the same as what happened in Cyprus in 1974 and since. Just one more important event you seem to have missed in trying to make a pathetic point. Perhaps you are more suited to debate with those on C44. They would think you are Einstein with your wealth of knowledge and the understanding you give towards the illegal and morally corrupted "trnc", or you can debate here without throwing hissy fit every five minutes. It's getting rather tiring in dealing with your "feminine side" emotions all the time. I hope I wasn't too insensitive to your feelings......................again?

Hurt my feelings? that is something you are incapable of kiks the reason I keep saying we should not talk is I don't like your attitude, you are a not very smart, extremely arrogant individual who I would guess is very lonely, and unfulfilled in your real life. If you wernt so arrogant I would actually feel sorry for you.

DTA,

You are full of opinions and you are entitle to them as you see them, no matter how distorted they may be, which they often are, because you do not know me from Adam and you ONLY know what I want you to know and nothing else. I have never ever stated what my intelligence is, but I get feedback from some of you people, specially by those who do not like what I have to say that I'm not as smart as I make out myself to be. I didn't make any such statement of how smart I am or not, so I don't know why you people keep bringing it up for. I have my opinions and I stick by them. If I'm wrong, then I would state it and make an apology. I am yet to make any apologies as far as can remember. My problem with you is, you get very emotional when others write their own opinions regarding the injustices, Fascism and Racism projected by the "trnc" on others, which you do not bother to question what so ever, other than few token displeasure here and there, but you are ready to throw hissy-fits on others who would dare to point out those institutionalized violations done by the "trnc". You want to be the "good" TCs and close your eyes and mind to these injustices and wrongs that are done by the "trnc", then be my guest, but don't expect me to agree with you nor prevent me from responding towards such wrongs. I'm not a "good" TC like you who tries very hard to be lemming and a sheep. I am my own person and I owe no allegiance to any institution that practices institutionalized Racism, Racism and Human Rights violations.

I don't want to correspond with you because to 'internet argue' with an individual such as your self is benief me - I don't want to know anything you have to say - your comments only annoy or bore me, you only get the attention you do on here because you are soo ridiculously bias in favour of the gcs who happen to be the majority on this website - which must give your sad existence some sense of small worth.

That's too bad, because I want to know what are your opinions and if they do not state facts as close as to the reality, I will make sure you will hear about it, regardless whether I will bore you with them or not. You do not want to respond to my posts, then don't. You want to support the "trnc" blindly, go ahead, but then don't come here pretending that you are a good Cypriot, because it would be a deception. You have not told us what is it that I support the GCs on. If my supporting of Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and the EU Principles to be the cornerstone of a BBF settlement under True Federation, then I must be a GC supporter. The question then is begged to be asked of you is, why aren't you since the EU is based on those principles, or do you want to be just a "good" TC and remain a lemming and a sheep. Tell me what is it that I support the GCs on that you disapprove of, which in your view are biased towards them and against the TCs interests.? It better be good or else expect to be hit over the head with it if it's not. The point is, I'm a Cypriot and I want the best for ALL Cypriots to live on an island which is part of the EU. The fact that I'm from the TC community is totally un important for me when it comes to whether I believe in the above values or not as I have stated. I do not let nationalism stand in my way of those values and Principles, regardless how many times you, the Partitionist, the Fascists, the Racists and anti EU principles supporters wish for me to do so. It isn't going to happen. You should be on my side if you believe in the above values and Principles. If you did,I promise you, it will not make you a GC sympathiser, but a true European.

So pretty please with sugar on top don't respond to me - I don't want to know.

Too bad for you, because you will hear from me, unless you want to post on C44, in which case, you won't hear from me.

On a personal note, I have nothing against you DTA. I don't have anything personal against anyone here on the forum for that matter, even VP. I just don't like some peoples moral values, their political ideology and Propaganda. Most of my posts are directed at those people. You should stop being a "good" TC by being a lemming and a sheep like most nationalists and start becoming a Great TC, by standing against institutionalized Racism, Fascism, Human Rights and International Law violations, regardless what hatred and mean spirited comments they may make about you. If you don't want to take my side, then take Bananiots side, which you seem to approve of him. Be like him and tell the wrongs you see that are being done by the "trnc" as he does with the RoC.

[Hermes]

Again pretty much like any other country.

Totally incorrect. The "TRNC" is not like any other country. It is not even a "country" as it is unrecognised. The international community has made a stand against the "TRNC" and declared it an illegal, pariah state. The UN has urged nations to have nothing to do with it. To not even recognise it as a "country".

The "TRNC" is outcast. It is beyond law, beyond acceptability. It cannot even be said to exist. The "TRNC" is persona non-grata. It is literally a place that is not welcome on the face of the earth. That is not "like any other country". It is like no country on earth. Literally.

This is too radical for my tastes.

You do not go about solving problems by telling your enemy that he shouldn't exist. Where does this stuff come from? If you're taking a page off of Palestine's book then perhaps you need to back off and cool down....

If the thread is about "T/C's are worse off then ever" then you can bet your behind that I'll be listening what fellow human TC's have to say on the matter, but at the same time I will attempt to see through the bias and consider all aspects.

Who is saying that T/Cs shouldn't exist? Where on earth did you get such a ridiculous idea from? The whole thrust of my reply was directed against the notion of the "TRNC" as a legally recognised country - which is a pariah state under international law. The UN explicitly calls on states not to assist or recognise the "TRNC" in any way. And the EU recognises only one state on the island of Cyprus as representative of the whole island: the RoC. In that sense, under international law, the "TRNC" cannot be said to exist. It was a direct response to an earlier point about whether it was feasible for the "TRNC" to gain independence or legal recognition in the manner of other new states. Several people pointed out the legal obstacles of the "TRNC" ever gaining recognition.

Before accusing others of making wild allegations or telling people to patronizingly "cool off" you'd be better off reading things in context and not casting aspersions based on what you think people might be saying.

On the second point about listening to how T/Cs feel about living in the north, I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that the original post was based on a series of interviews conducted with T/Cs living in the north by a Cambridge academic. I think that should carry some weight. As should the fact that tens of thousands of T/Cs, of all political persuasions, recently marched in protest against Turkey's policies in the north.

Some T/Cs on this forum have proclaimed that they are better off under Turkish rule than they could possibly be under a united island. This is a perception that needs to be challenged. Life isn't rosy in the "TRNC". One forum member was called a "liar" when he suggested there are tensions between T/Cs and settlers. Some are happy with the "one Turk goes, another arrives" policy. But some T/Cs realize they need to make a stand against Turkey's policies in the north before there are none of them left. Let's face it, it's in no-one's interest that T/Cs continue to abandon the island en masse. There'll be no-one left to unite with otherwise.