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[Nikitas]

It was Denktash who said the only Cypriots on Cyprus are the donkeys, thus denying national identity to ALL communities of Cyprus.

After the invasion and the acceptance of BBF by Makarios and Denktash, it was Turkey who undermined every step of the process, culminating in the idiotic creation of the TRNC in 1983.

You have to be totally naive not to see that Turkey all along, and for a while the Greek dictators wanted to dissolve the RoC. Gul even said as much just before the 2004 referendum. EU membership has nixed those plans, no wonder Erdo is so angry and frustrated lately.

The only chance real TCs have of overturning the situation is now, under the shield of EU membership. Now is the time to assert themselves with no help from GCs. Any help given by the GCs will be interpreted as having ulterior motives and weaken any TC iniiatives. There are severa lmajor players in the EU who would lend a helping hand to the TCs if they rose against Turkey, France and Germany being the most important, but others are not far behind. Britain and Greece will drag their feet naturally, as they always did.

[BirKibrisli]

Thank you Hermes for starting a new topic on this. I am obviously very lousy in starting topics anyway...
VP you mostly base your objections on the fact that you are financially bound to Turkey.
First of all it is the administration that is bound to Turkey by some about $ 1-2 billion per year. With a side Government you are not bound anymore.
Bir hello once again and welcome back.
The slogan that the "GCs stole our rights" is very old . It might have had some meaning in the 60s but not after 1974 although it continued been cultivated by Denktash even after 1974. After the opening of the gates I don't think there are many Kibrislis left thinking of this to be anything near to what was stolen from the Kypreos.

You may say that what the RoC has done for them after 1974 is the minimum, I say it was the maximum possible. If you disagree then tell us what else could it have done.

I agree that Eroglu was saying the same things long before Erdogan, even in a milder way. The question is WHO IS EROGLU???
Is he really the true representative of the Kibrislis???

Hello,dear Pyro,and thank you for the welcome ...I havent really b een away,just not posting...One gets bored repeating the same old arguments after a while...

The phrase "GCs stole our rights" is not a slogan for many Kibrislis,it is a historical fact...Historical facts do not get old,they become more and more entrenched...And yes,most Kibrislis believe that the successive GC governments did only the minimum for the TCs...If you claim to be the sole legitimate government for all Cypriots you have to pay certain price,in this case passports,pensions,and free hospital treatment..

.What was taken however was the political rights of the TC community as per the 1960 constitution,and tht is what has to be returned...Between 1963 and 74, basking in the glory of removing the TCs from power,Makarios agreed to nothing which would restore the situation...He played the political game well,and left to him there would've been no Cyprus problem to talk about today...He was methodical in his tactics to make the TCs leave Cyprus,and he would've succeeded...

Things are somewhat different since 1974,but not for the TCs...They have now lost their political power to Turkey,and all they get is the blame for their own misfortunes...This is what has to stop...the Kypreos must stop denying what they did back in 63,which was esssentially throwing the TCs out of power at gunpoint...Admit the responsibility and offer reconstitution...

If you abuse somebody and deny it,or say 'look your own side is abusing you as well,so that absolves us" is not going to work...You are wasting your time here,cooking up impossible dreams...Wasting time we do not have...As VP keeps telling you,the average TC living in the trnc would rather put up with all the negatives of Turkey's assimilation policy than run back to the arms of their original abusers,especially when that abuser has shown no sign of understanding, remorse, or regret...

Even the worst opponents of Turkey's policies (the Unions,Jasmine movement,Afrika newspaper etc) have never suggested such a move...What the RoC government has to do now is to accept the TC community as equal partners in a BBF...The rights TCs had in the founding Constitution need now ,in the light of all that transpired since 1974,to translate into political equality with a bizonal statelet...It shouldnt be too difficult to satisfy all the GC fears regarding the future,if there is goodwill,and determination to right the past wrongs...If you keep forcing Erdogan's hand he will do what he is threatening to do (go alone and dictate his own solution) whatever the cost...Such is the stark reality we all face...Ignore it at your own peril,and the peril of all Cypriots,Kypreos and Kibrislis alike...

[BirKibrisli]

Its a novel idea but un-workable, unless there is an anti occupation 'mass movement' then i cant see how it would work. The UN/EU would be seen as 'interfering' thus creating an even more hardline reaction from Turkey and its proxies. The best thing the EU could and should have done was and is to use econmoic leverage aganist Turkey. what other leverage have we got left?
TC's cannot 'break away' we simply dont have the means to do that unless a genuine pan cypriot movement developed. However, for that to happen I believe the GC;s need to call Turkeys Bluff and 'recognize or quasi recognize' the North.

My friend the whole thing starts from the point whether Eroglu represents the real Kibrislis or not. It is very easy to prove that Eroglu does not represent you. All you have to do is to mobilize and ask for help to prove it.This help can come from anywhere the Kibrislis want, first preference for me would be the UN, second the EU 3rd the RoC, or better all of them together. Once you PROVE this point, then there will be an avalanche of developments.

a)at the same time you prove that the will of the real Kibrislis has been eroded by the settlers who impose on you "leaders" that don't want a solution and don't represent you.
b)You prove that the presence of settlers and their given "citizenship" is a real burden in finding a solution
c)You get the backup of the UN, EU etc to either remove Eroglu or form a Provisional Government.
d)You limit the control of Turkey to only providing you security until a solution is found.Contrary to what happens now that Turkey does whatever she likes with your fates.

I am not saying the solution will come easy even after that.But at least the major obstacles in finding one will be gone.

After all what is the alternative? Just sit there, do nothing of essence other than demonstrating in the streets and be beaten? I think you said it yourself, that you participated in so many demonstrations yet nothing happens and your voices get slimmer and slimmer. If the Kibrislis continue like that then VP's favorable expectation to be assimilated with the mainland Turks is a matter of a few years away, I say maximum 15.

I wish the Kypreos and the RoC could help you, but unfortunately we are also weak. the Kibrislis must take their fate in their OWN HANDS and it's upto them to succeed or not. And who knows if you get successful the RoC might be able to do something about helping you stand financially on your own feet, it all depends how the new situation will be.

We have all be caught in a spiders web that we know exactly what will happen in the end.Unless we do something RADICAL then we are finished.

Dear Pyro, I know better than most people here that you mean very well,and you are truly concerned about finding a just solution...But I am afraid Jahitty is right...Any radical move has to come from the ROC...You ask who does Eroglu reperesent...The only realistic answer is :He represents those who voted for him at the last elections...It is true that most of his support came from the settlers but there is no way of proving that...But we can prove how much political support the radical opponents of Turkey have in the trnc by looking at the votes for Zeki Besiktepeli,the candidate of the Jasmine Movement supported strongly by Sener levent and the Afrika Newspaper...The figure was about 1.2 % from memory...

That translates to about 1800 people at most,hardly enough to make waves by taking radical steps...Even after the latest police violence against demonstrators you do not get too many calls from too many quarters for the TCs to totally embrace the GCs in a radical solution...Now if the ROC took a radical step,recognised the trnc (even provisionally and conditionally),and declared that they would only negotiate with the person who has the most support from the real TCs (to be determined in an election supervised by the UN,say),that would be putting the cat amongst the pidgeon...That is the kind of radical move which might pull the rag from under Turkey...I am not holding my breath however...

[Piratis]

The phrase "GCs stole our rights" is not a slogan for many Kibrislis,it is a historical fact

The historical fact is that it is the TCs who stole our rights, by collaborating with foreign imperialists in order to steal from the majority of the Cypriot population their democratic rights, and impose by means of brute force and blackmail an apartheid system that divided the Cypriot population along ethnic lines and discriminated against the majority, so that your minority could regain the unfair privileges it had over the native population during the Ottoman rule.

The GCs didn't steal anything from you, Makarios simply proposed democratic reforms that would remove the racist discriminations you had earlier imposed and would make all Cypriots equal citizens. The members of your minority would retain the 100% of their human rights, and they would even retain several privileges as a group which would be more than equivalent minorities in other countries receive (e.g. Muslims in Bulgaria or Kurds in Turkey). Unfortunately your leadership (under the directions of Turkey) refused to even discuss the proposals for the democratic reforms, you withdrew from the government, and you re-initiated the conflict with an aim to further divide the population and steal even more of our rights. Thats the fact.

Stop hoping that we will ever accept to legitimize the crimes you committed against us and grand to you our lands. The solution is only one, and it is the same one that should have been applied from 1960: A free, democratic Cyprus were all people are equal without racist discriminations and human rights violations. Anything that legitimizes human rights violations and ethnic cleansing can not be called a "solution".

[Nikitas]

Bir said: "As VP keeps telling you,the average TC living in the trnc would rather put up with all the negatives of Turkey's assimilation policy than run back to the arms of their original abusers,especially when that abuser has shown no sign of understanding, remorse, or regret..."

Bir you are confusing me. You seem to be implying that if Turkey were to come to her senses now, a hypothetical situation obviously, the situation would go back to 1963.

I could be wrong, but so far I have not met any GC who thinks that can happen. The BBF thing will still be the basis for a solution between the two communities, that is what the vast majority of GCs think, but it will not have any neo colonial elements or any hint of confederation.

As for the remorse for the events of 1963-68 (when the forced segregation ended), I assure you that it is often mentioned in the media. The phrases "we mistreated our TC compatriots", "we behaved in a racist way" and others along those lines have been uttered by GC politicians of various parties publicly and often.

There is a dose of irony in the situation as it is today, the more Turkish demands are made the less the TCs will get. If the TCs were on their own they would get many more "concessions" from the GCs in the context of a BBF.

[BirKibrisli]

The phrase "GCs stole our rights" is not a slogan for many Kibrislis,it is a historical fact

The historical fact is that it is the TCs who stole our rights, by collaborating with foreign imperialists in order to steal from the majority of the Cypriot population their democratic rights, and impose by means of brute force and blackmail an apartheid system that divided the Cypriot population along ethnic lines and discriminated against the majority, so that your minority could regain the unfair privileges it had over the native population during the Ottoman rule.

The GCs didn't steal anything from you, Makarios simply proposed democratic reforms that would remove the racist discriminations you had earlier imposed and would make all Cypriots equal citizens. The members of your minority would retain the 100% of their human rights, and they would even retain several privileges as a group which would be more than equivalent minorities in other countries receive (e.g. Muslims in Bulgaria or Kurds in Turkey). Unfortunately your leadership (under the directions of Turkey) refused to even discuss the proposals for the democratic reforms, you withdrew from the government, and you re-initiated the conflict with an aim to further divide the population and steal even more of our rights. Thats the fact.

Stop hoping that we will ever accept to legitimize the crimes you committed against us and grand to you our lands. The solution is only one, and it is the same one that should have been applied from 1960: A free, democratic Cyprus were all people are equal without racist discriminations and human rights violations. Anything that legitimizes human rights violations and ethnic cleansing can not be called a "solution".

yeah,yeah,yeah...I heard all this before,Piratis...Your one eyed approach (you as in the plural) is the main reason why we have not so far,and will probably never, found a solution ourselves,but will have to settle for what outsiders impose on us eventually...I might be around to say "I told you say"...If I am not,I am saying it NOW...

[Piratis]

The phrase "GCs stole our rights" is not a slogan for many Kibrislis,it is a historical fact

The historical fact is that it is the TCs who stole our rights, by collaborating with foreign imperialists in order to steal from the majority of the Cypriot population their democratic rights, and impose by means of brute force and blackmail an apartheid system that divided the Cypriot population along ethnic lines and discriminated against the majority, so that your minority could regain the unfair privileges it had over the native population during the Ottoman rule.

The GCs didn't steal anything from you, Makarios simply proposed democratic reforms that would remove the racist discriminations you had earlier imposed and would make all Cypriots equal citizens. The members of your minority would retain the 100% of their human rights, and they would even retain several privileges as a group which would be more than equivalent minorities in other countries receive (e.g. Muslims in Bulgaria or Kurds in Turkey). Unfortunately your leadership (under the directions of Turkey) refused to even discuss the proposals for the democratic reforms, you withdrew from the government, and you re-initiated the conflict with an aim to further divide the population and steal even more of our rights. Thats the fact.

Stop hoping that we will ever accept to legitimize the crimes you committed against us and grand to you our lands. The solution is only one, and it is the same one that should have been applied from 1960: A free, democratic Cyprus were all people are equal without racist discriminations and human rights violations. Anything that legitimizes human rights violations and ethnic cleansing can not be called a "solution".

yeah,yeah,yeah...I heard all this before,Piratis...Your one eyed approach (you as in the plural) is the main reason why we have not so far,and will probably never, found a solution ourselves,but will have to settle for what outsiders impose on us eventually...I might be around to say "I told you say"...If I am not,I am saying it NOW...

Your aim has always been to impose a "solution" created by foreigners. So you are really not telling me anything new.

You demand for your own minority privileges and powers that no other minority in any other country has, even if those privileges come at the expense of our democratic and basic human rights. How else can you gain such privileges other than imposing them on us by force, and how can your small minority impose something so unfair on the majority of the population other than by collaborating with foreign Imperialists? (which of course means that in return your minority would serve the interests of those foreigners in Cyprus - nothing is given to you by those Imperialists for free)

If you really wanted for Cypriots to decide what they want for themselves, then you would accept to be equal Cypriots like every other Cypriot (GCs, Armenians, Maronites, Latins etc) and accept that the Cypriot people can choose for themselves what they want for their own island by democratic means. But you reject democracy (which is how the will of the Cypriot people can be expressed) and you continue to collaborate with foreign Imperialists in order to impose something which is against the democratic and human rights of the vast majority of Cypriots.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir said: "As VP keeps telling you,the average TC living in the trnc would rather put up with all the negatives of Turkey's assimilation policy than run back to the arms of their original abusers,especially when that abuser has shown no sign of understanding, remorse, or regret..."

Bir you are confusing me. You seem to be implying that if Turkey were to come to her senses now, a hypothetical situation obviously, the situation would go back to 1963.

I could be wrong, but so far I have not met any GC who thinks that can happen. The BBF thing will still be the basis for a solution between the two communities, that is what the vast majority of GCs think, but it will not have any neo colonial elements or any hint of confederation.

As for the remorse for the events of 1963-68 (when the forced segregation ended), I assure you that it is often mentioned in the media. The phrases "we mistreated our TC compatriots", "we behaved in a racist way" and others along those lines have been uttered by GC politicians of various parties publicly and often.

There is a dose of irony in the situation as it is today, the more Turkish demands are made the less the TCs will get. If the TCs were on their own they would get many more "concessions" from the GCs in the context of a BBF.

I am trying to make people realise that any RADICAL steps towards a solution need to come from the RoC...That it is beyond wishful thinking to expect the TC community to turn their back on Turkey in the way it is suggested in this topic...

A solution,if it comes,will of course be in the form of a BBF...Even Erdogan has publicly declared that to be the only acceptable and feasible solution...I keep harping on the events between 1963-74,simply because I believe the GC denial of what really happened during that time is the primary obstacle to solving our problem...Just read Piratis' post above and you will see what I mean...

I have no doubt many people think like he does,and sincerely believe that the GCs are the biggest victims in this conflict...As long as they believe that,they will not be ready to agree to any solution which will not give them all they demand...

It is no use saying all that happened a long time ago,we must look forward etc...We cannot do that until we come to terms with what really happened in our recent past...Spewing official state propaganda as Piratis is doing will do nothing exept make him feel better and self-rightious momentarily...The average GC must come to the realisation that the TCs have had it very bad for a very long time,and it is only getting worse for them...

I return to those out of fashion and favour words...undertanding,empathy,compassion...There is very little of it as far as I can see...paying lip service to the TC suffering is not enough...The RoC government must swollow the bitter pill and comprehensively educate its population regarding the historical facts...They might than be ready,the GOChurch permitting,to agree to a BBF...But time is running out...

[BirKibrisli]

The phrase "GCs stole our rights" is not a slogan for many Kibrislis,it is a historical fact

The historical fact is that it is the TCs who stole our rights, by collaborating with foreign imperialists in order to steal from the majority of the Cypriot population their democratic rights, and impose by means of brute force and blackmail an apartheid system that divided the Cypriot population along ethnic lines and discriminated against the majority, so that your minority could regain the unfair privileges it had over the native population during the Ottoman rule.

The GCs didn't steal anything from you, Makarios simply proposed democratic reforms that would remove the racist discriminations you had earlier imposed and would make all Cypriots equal citizens. The members of your minority would retain the 100% of their human rights, and they would even retain several privileges as a group which would be more than equivalent minorities in other countries receive (e.g. Muslims in Bulgaria or Kurds in Turkey). Unfortunately your leadership (under the directions of Turkey) refused to even discuss the proposals for the democratic reforms, you withdrew from the government, and you re-initiated the conflict with an aim to further divide the population and steal even more of our rights. Thats the fact.

Stop hoping that we will ever accept to legitimize the crimes you committed against us and grand to you our lands. The solution is only one, and it is the same one that should have been applied from 1960: A free, democratic Cyprus were all people are equal without racist discriminations and human rights violations. Anything that legitimizes human rights violations and ethnic cleansing can not be called a "solution".

yeah,yeah,yeah...I heard all this before,Piratis...Your one eyed approach (you as in the plural) is the main reason why we have not so far,and will probably never, found a solution ourselves,but will have to settle for what outsiders impose on us eventually...I might be around to say "I told you say"...If I am not,I am saying it NOW...

Your aim has always been to impose a "solution" created by foreigners. So you are really not telling me anything new.

You demand for your own minority privileges and powers that no other minority in any other country has, even if those privileges come at the expense of our democratic and basic human rights. How else can you gain such privileges other than imposing them on us by force, and how can your small minority impose something so unfair on the majority of the population other than by collaborating with foreign Imperialists? (which of course means that in return your minority would serve the interests of those foreigners in Cyprus - nothing is given to you by those Imperialists for free)

If you really wanted for Cypriots to decide what they want for themselves, then you would accept to be equal Cypriots like every other Cypriot (GCs, Armenians, Maronites, Latins etc) and accept that the Cypriot people can choose for themselves what they want for their own island by democratic means. But you reject democracy (which is how the will of the Cypriot people can be expressed) and you continue to collaborate with foreign Imperialists in order to impose something which is against the democratic and human rights of the vast majority of Cypriots.

Don't make me laugh,Piratis...It is too late to talk about "democratic principles",the horse has bolted..There was nothing democratic about the way Makarios,Grivas,Yorgadjis et al treated the TCs between 1963-74...You must come to terms with that,and realise that all that followed since 1963 could not be avoided, given the circumstances and the actions of the holy trinity mentioned above...Your community leaders have made grave mistakes,and you will have to pay the price now for their bloody mindedness in the past...There is no escaping it...When you accept that,the road will be open to a fair solution...Keep on insisting on your offical state propaganda,and all Cypriots and our motherland,Cyprus,will lose big time...The choice is yours...

[B25]

Just goes to show, you are stuck in the past, in 1960. This is nearly 40 years after the invasion (1974) and mass murder your motherland carried out on these lands.

Piratis is correct in so much, that you want unreasonable privilages over our human and democratic rights. God, you havent even rejected anything he has posted, but just followed on with 1960 BS as usual.

Your motherland is taking good care of your TCs don't worry, we would have acheived the aim without firing a single bullet. Some saviour, huh? You can keep them.

You don't want an agreed solution, you want to impose upon us AGAIN that which you did in 1960, to that I say FO big time it ain't happening. With your motherlands loud mouth, I think she is about to receive a boot in it anytime soon. Watch this space. Moron.