Cyprus-Forum.com

[bill cobbett]

The understanding is that after a settlement, that CY will remove any veto over Turkish Accession into the EU.

If we then speculate that one day Turkey joins the EU, its citizens will have freedom of movement and establishment anywhere in the EU... including anywhere in CY.

Now it's not unusual for existing member states to impose quotas on the this freedom of establishment in the Accession Treaty for new members. For instance, Germany had quotas on workers from Poland for some years, a restriction that lasted about 5 years and which ended a few months ago.

Of the opinion that within any CY Settlement there should be a clause that will place very tight restrictions on future Turkish immigration under Turkish EU membership. After all the CYs living north of the cease-fire line have been swamped by Illegal Settlers in recent years, many of these will be asked to leave under the Settlement, the last thing anyone would want is that they and many others will return a few years down the line, and return legally as EU citizens.

Sure all will agree???? ...

[Kikapu]

The understanding is that after a settlement, that CY will remove any veto over Turkish Accession into the EU.

If we then speculate that one day Turkey joins the EU, its citizens will have freedom of movement and establishment anywhere in the EU... including anywhere in CY.

Now it's not unusual for existing member states to impose quotas on the this freedom of establishment in the Accession Treaty for new members. For instance, Germany had quotas on workers from Poland for some years, a restriction that lasted about 5 years and which ended a few months ago.

Of the opinion that within any CY Settlement there should be a clause that will place very tight restrictions on future Turkish immigration under Turkish EU membership. After all the CYs living north of the cease-fire line have been swamped by Illegal Settlers in recent years, many of these will be asked to leave under the Settlement, the last thing anyone would want is that they and many others will return a few years down the line, and return legally as EU citizens.

Sure all will agree???? ...

I don't think many Turks will be able to afford to move to Cyprus, even after Turkey becomes a EU member. The only reason why there are too many settlers in the north now is, most are living in GCs properties for free. If wealthy Turks want to move to Cyprus and spend their money, we should take it and say, "thank you".

[Jerry]

The understanding is that after a settlement, that CY will remove any veto over Turkish Accession into the EU.

If we then speculate that one day Turkey joins the EU, its citizens will have freedom of movement and establishment anywhere in the EU... including anywhere in CY.

Now it's not unusual for existing member states to impose quotas on the this freedom of establishment in the Accession Treaty for new members. For instance, Germany had quotas on workers from Poland for some years, a restriction that lasted about 5 years and which ended a few months ago.

Of the opinion that within any CY Settlement there should be a clause that will place very tight restrictions on future Turkish immigration under Turkish EU membership. After all the CYs living north of the cease-fire line have been swamped by Illegal Settlers in recent years, many of these will be asked to leave under the Settlement, the last thing anyone would want is that they and many others will return a few years down the line, and return legally as EU citizens.

Sure all will agree???? ...

I don't think many Turks will be able to afford to move to Cyprus, even after Turkey becomes a EU member. The only reason why there are too many settlers in the north now is, most are living in GCs properties for free. If wealthy Turks want to move to Cyprus and spend their money, we should take it and say, "thank you".

And of course if Turks are free to move about the island and settle where they like the same right should be afforded to GCs who want to move north, and unlike mainlanders they could probably afford to do so. In order to facilitate a solution to the Cyprus problem I think an exception would have to be made with regard to freedom of movement. Generally the EU does not like permanent derogations but, for instance, in the case of Malta an exception was made that prohibits foreigners buying more than one property on that island. To me it's inconceivable that the EU would insist that every rule and regulation is applied to Cyprus if that meant settlement failure.

[bill cobbett]

Erm... on this matter of EU principles and Derogations...

Much of what we call EU Principles are an incorporation of various ECHR articles in to an EU framework.

So for instance, take Freedom of Movement, which also incorporates freedom of residence/establishment and which is something enjoyed by all EU citizens.

In the EU context this freedom of movement is guaranteed by the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (Article 45) . and ..."European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC of 29 April 2004 on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States amending Regulation (EEC) No 1612/68 and repealing Directives 64/221/EEC, 68/360/EEC, 72/194/EEC, 73/148/EEC, 75/34/EEC, 75/35/EEC, 90/364/EEC, 90/365/EEC and 93/96/EEC..."

But these directives and others, are in turn derived from the ECHR...

In the case of freedom of movement , Article 2 of ...." Protocol 4 of the ECHR - civil imprisonment, free movement, expulsion
Article 1 prohibits the imprisonment of people for breach of a contract. Article 2 provides for a right to freely move within a country once lawfully there and for a right to leave any country. Article 3 prohibits the expulsion of nationals and provides for the right of an individual to enter a country of his or her nationality. Article 4 prohibits the collective expulsion of foreigners... '

The point would stress it's possible, just possible (depending on legal advice from the ECJ) to have an EU derogation from the freedom of movement directives ... BUT ... BUT ....BUT ...

It's a much more difficult thing, perhaps even an impossible thing, to get derogations from the ECHR for the basic human right for freedom of movement within the sovereign territory of a nation for the citizenry of that nation.

[Jerry]

So what you are saying Bill is that the EU may be able to prohibit movement within the EU but the ECHR will refuse to prohibit movement of Cypriot citizens on the island between component States. If that's right is it a bad thing?

[bill cobbett]

So what you are saying Bill is that the EU may be able to prohibit movement within the EU but the ECHR will refuse to prohibit movement of Cypriot citizens on the island between component States. If that's right is it a bad thing?

Well, think someone at the talks should very, very soon get an expert legal opinion from the ECJ on a number of possible derogations, primarily the freedom of movement affair.

... and yes if the EU allow what would presumably be a permanent derogation, in all likelihood the derogations imho wouldn't pass muster with the ECHR, after all what's the point of universal human rights, inalienable and uncompromisable rights if a state can apply to the ECHR for derogations from them?

Bad thing or good thing? ... Well, if we believe in these human rights, and we've struggled for centuries to have them recognised, prob from Magna Carta on through a number of other stages including such things as the US Bill of Rights, if we value them then we surely must value each and every single article as a good thing.

Now more on good and bad... all this history of the development of human rights has been very much based on an Anglo-American model of the rights of the individual and they have tended to exclude collective rights. Indeed, can't think of a single collective right in the ECHR. (much of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was drafted by GB lawyers by the way, drawing on the writings of 18th and 19th Century GB progressive thinkers).

So all in all a good thing to my liberal and individualistic based way of thinking.

[humanist]

Well boyz and girlz it does not look like we will have a solution whilst Eroglu the Turkish slave is in power. We'll have to wait for a peace loving TC to become leader before we see FREEDOM.

[bill cobbett]

Well boyz and girlz it does not look like we will have a solution whilst Eroglu the Turkish slave is in power. We'll have to wait for a peace loving TC to become leader before we see FREEDOM.

Who knows what the next few months will bring A.

Have gone in to the Anan Scam and this by the way is the letter that would have been sent to the Council of Europe, and it refers to Property matters before the CoE's ECHR. This letter would have taken Property out of the court of the ECHR, which is fair enough cos a Property Commission was to be set up .... but it makes no reference to such thing as the Freedom of Movement right under Article 2 of the Fourth Protocol to the ECHR...


ATTACHMENT 3: LETTER TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL OF THE COUNCIL OF EUROPE
[to be sent upon entry into force of Foundation Agreement]
Excellency,
We wish to inform you that, having been approved at separate simultaneous referenda, the Foundation Agreement between the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots has entered into force, and a new state of affairs has come into being in Cyprus. Accordingly, the United Cyprus Republic is an independent and sovereign state with a single international legal personality and a federal government and consists of two constituent states, namely the Greek Cypriot State and the Turkish Cypriot State. The European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms and its Additional Protocols are in force for the United Cyprus Republic.
We solemnly declare that henceforth, the membership rights and obligations of Cyprus in the Council of Europe shall be exercised in accordance with the new state of affairs.
We also wish to inform you that the Foundation Agreement resolves in a comprehensive manner all issues that have divided Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots in the past, including all property questions. We would like to bring to your attention the fact that the Foundation Agreement provides a domestic remedy for the solution of all questions related to affected property in Cyprus, and to inform you that the United Cyprus Republic shall be the sole responsible State Party concerning such matters. Moreover, pursuant to Article 37 of the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms and Rule 43 of the Rules of Court, we request the Court to strike out any proceedings currently before it concerning affected property in Cyprus, in order to allow the domestic mechanism established to solve these cases to proceed.
We would be grateful if you would bring this letter to the attention of the Parliamentary Assembly and the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe, and we request that the Parliamentary Assembly and the Committee of Ministers endorse the Foundation Agreement.
Please accept, Excellency, the assurances of our highest consideration.
Co-President Co-President

[bill cobbett]

can also say further in reply to Jerry above...

Of course at the political level, the EU, esp those pressing for Turkish Accession, will accommodate a rights-busting CY settlement, but again... don't think it'll pass a legal test at the ECJ and certain aspects will fall if challenged at the ECHR.

Think back to the opening the ports in the Occupied Areas a few months ago, the EU politicians were mostly for it... but the ECJ found otherwise at the legal level.

[antifon]

Well boyz and girlz it does not look like we will have a solution whilst Eroglu the Turkish slave is in power. We'll have to wait for a peace loving TC to become leader before we see FREEDOM.

The best defense is offense. Let's change the rules. Let's bring the game in Turkey's home court! More forcefully. Cyprus's fate will be judged in Diyarbakir and the poor neighborhoods of Constantinople, formerly Greek now Kurdish! Millions of minds ready to adopt our message. They are ready. A message of justice and reason in majority-minority relations.

Our ammunition will be words, ideas and principles, especially the latter's universal application. Turkey will win too, although the mild fascists' strategy on Cyprus will lose badly.