Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

We have a similar saying in Turkish but you seem to forget that we do not trust each other and do not want to jump into a dangerous situation without any say in our own future.

So do you suggest that the Kypreos takes all the risks and you nothing?

[Kikapu]

So to summarize past all the camouflage above both situations are possible, therefore your claim that all we need is a "True Federation, Democracy, Human Rights and EU Principles" is whopping porkie as it can be manipulated if the majority want to use their numerical advantage to take control and dominate the island. That why we need derogation's and guarantees to ensure that this is not even remotely an option.

Democracy means everything is a possibility, no matter how impossible it may be for it to happen in reality. Only in Dictatorship you can have an absolute guarantees.

Just your very simplistic claims that both are possible without explaining how, tells me you are just blowing hot air and do not understand how Federation works, which does not leave any room for a serious debate with you.

In any case, you don't have a choice with the EU Principles, therefore you need to make the best of it, which means giving back as much land as possible. The only derogation you may be able to ask for which it won't violate anyone's Democratic and Human Rights in reality, is the one I gave you, the "Grandfathered-in Population" clause, providing you make it worthwhile to the GCs to agree to it by you returning most of their land back,
and then you won't have to worry about anything else.

You yourself explained how "democracy" can be manipulated, why do you need further explanation?, i asked you questions you answered and we all read that what you peddle can be manipulated to the benefit of either side.

Land return has always and will always be on the cards we all know that but it will never go below 25% so make the best of it.

So you are back down to 25% again. Well, it's a start.

I'm giving you a clear picture what Federation and Democracy are all about and how to minimize the problems for the TCs due to their numerical minority status. It was not me who agreed to a BBF but your beloved Denktash, therefore you are stuck with it now, and if you want to get the best from it, the size of the north state will make or break for the TCs. The more land you keep, the more the chance things breaking for the TCs. Why do you think Makarios agreed to BBF and why did you think Denktash and his successors never wanted a settlement based on BBF, as the case still continues today. But that's the deal Denktash made and not me. I'm only going by what is the reality today where as you want to talk about fantasy plans that cannot be in BBF as it has been proven with the AP. What other evidence do you need that you are stuck with BBF as in Federation, and to make things "worse" for you, since 2004, you are now stuck with the EU Principles also which Denktash could never have contemplated Cyprus being in the EU in the late 70's in a million years. No wonder partition is now your best option, but that is not on the table because of Turkey's EU membership is in the RoC's hands nor will it be accepted by other major actors, including Turkey I may add.

[Pyrpolizer]

Kiks my conclusion with VP is whatever we say VP will glide again asking for something that only partition will guarantee it.
It's a waste of time...

[Viewpoint]

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[Viewpoint]

We have a similar saying in Turkish but you seem to forget that we do not trust each other and do not want to jump into a dangerous situation without any say in our own future.

So do you suggest that the Kypreos takes all the risks and you nothing?

never you to should have guarantees and safeguards but you should not deny me mine if you do not want any.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu BBF is the only thing on the table right now but without agreement something will follow these talks which will not go on forever. BBF with political equality even with EU principles which we have shown can be adjusted if all sides agree is such a wide spectrum and includes so many loopholes, its those loopholes and pitfalls we are trying to protect ourselves from. When will you realize we are not bad people only people who do not trust due to past experiences. We do not get a second chance and if we leave the door wide open to manipulation and domination the GCs will not walk though it they will sprint.

[Pyrpolizer]

We have a similar saying in Turkish but you seem to forget that we do not trust each other and do not want to jump into a dangerous situation without any say in our own future.

So do you suggest that the Kypreos takes all the risks and you nothing?

never you to should have guarantees and safeguards.

Fine
I want a guarantee that the 50K settlers who will stay won't be having 10 children each so they don't become 1/2 a million in 20 years.
I want a guarantee that you will house all the settlers in new homes with your own money within 2 years after a solution
I want a guarantee that my standard of living and % growth won't diminish after a solution.
I want Turkey out from the very first day to feel safe
I want 82% of land just to be safe anything goes wrong.
I want a guarantee that you will be able to pay all those public servants you have now (almost half the Kibrislis), and all those of you who will be in the Federal Government.
I want a guarantee that the Kypreos returning will be educated in their own language at their own schools all costs paid by the Fed state.
I want a quarantee for absolute free bussiness and enterprise everywhere in Cyprus

I could fill up a list of pages upon pages of guarantees and safeguards I want.
How would you satisfy me?

[Viewpoint]

We have a similar saying in Turkish but you seem to forget that we do not trust each other and do not want to jump into a dangerous situation without any say in our own future.

So do you suggest that the Kypreos takes all the risks and you nothing?

never you to should have guarantees and safeguards.

Fine
I want a guarantee that the 50K settlers who will stay won't be having 10 children each so they don't become 1/2 a million in 20 years.
I want a guarantee that you will house all the settlers in new homes with your own money within 2 years after a solution
I want a guarantee that my standard of living and % growth won't diminish after a solution.
I want Turkey out from the very first day to feel safe
I want 82% of land just to be safe anything goes wrong.
I want a guarantee that you will be able to pay all those public servants you have now (almost half the Kibrislis), and all those of you who will be in the Federal Government.
I want a guarantee that the Kypreos returning will be educated in their own language at their own schools all costs paid by the Fed state.
I want a quarantee for absolute free bussiness and enterprise everywhere in Cyprus

I could fill up a list of pages upon pages of guarantees and safeguards I want.
How would you satisfy me?

OK to all the above just the 82% the best is 75% 25% Now how about my guarantees and safeguards?

[Pyrpolizer]

Kikapu BBF is the only thing on the table right now but without agreement something will follow these talks which will not go on forever. BBF with political equality even with EU principles which we have shown can be adjusted if all sides agree is such a wide spectrum and includes so many loopholes, its those loopholes and pitfalls we are trying to protect ourselves from. When will you realize we are not bad people only people who do not trust due to past experiences. We do not get a second chance and if we leave the door wide open to manipulation and domination the GCs will not walk though it they will sprint.

You have to take reasonable precautions. The same goes for the Kypreos. it is ABSOLUTELY AND HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE to predict everything and have safeguards and guarantees for everything. If you don't trust the Kypreos you better not go into any agreement.You have to show trust (the same goes both ways of course) make your best to make the solution workable and both sides TAKE THE RISK. There will be RISK. And there is nothing anyone can do to avoid it.

[Viewpoint]

We cannot take risk...it would mean our end. Now do you understand why we try to cover all the bases to make sure we are not pushed into the cold once again. taking a risk only comes with trust and we do not trust each other...we have absolutely no reason to.