Cyprus-Forum.com

[humanist]

In my opinion this thread should be closed just as was the AP back in 2004. The understanding was a referendum for people to decide what they wanted we excercised our rights to say NO to something that was racists and anti greek Cypriot. If the TC's want unification then they better come up with a better plan.

[Kikapu]

a)unitary State with Kibrislis on minority status

Our biggest fear you are pouring petrol on a fire, this is totally unacceptable, why the hell are you negotiation BBF clearly you do not support it.

b)All refugees back to their homes including the Kibrislis.

How is this physically possible? When homes have been destroyed or million dollar projects have been built on disputed land.

c)Turkey out of Cyprus and complete abolishing of the treaties of guarantees. Demilitarization of Cyprus

What will we replace it with? this was number 1 on my priority list if you want it abolished you have to come up with something to replace it and ask me to accept it.

d)all settlers be sent home

All? people who have been here 37 years, married a TC? had children here? will they go to Turkey as well?

You didn't understand what i said. Read it carefully

I know what you said. What I'm saying is, you didn't understand what Pyro was saying and getting at, that's all.

I'll let him explain it to you. I don't want to steal his thunder away.

[Pyrpolizer]

Hello dear Kikapu, nice to have some different views for a change
First of all I am not really referring to my personal views but to the views of the Kypreos leadership. They already agreed to BBF!Let's see the implications and how it can apply without violating basic human rights.

Effective say at all levels(No loop holes) = 50% minimum vote of TC MPS in upper house to get a bill through and referendum for any constitutional changes.

First of all, the above implies ONLY a TC can run for upper house senate seat in the north state. Already a clash with the EU Principles.
Not really. It just excludes the voting/election rights of the Kypreos in the Kibrisli state FOR SOME POSITIONS necessary to maintain the Bicommunality. These rights are NOT BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS, therefore they can get a pass in the EU.

Secondly, having ONLY TCs as senators from the north's upper house and requiring that minimum 50% of them must vote for a bill to pass, takes away the majority rule principles

In federations my friend the matter of majority rule is gone.Each federal State is equal even if the one has 10 million people and the other 1 million.

Thirdly, if it requires to have minimum 50% of senate vote to pass a bill from either state's upper house, then there is no need to have a Rotating Presidency as a compromise, since a veto can come from the 50% voting of the senators in the upper house. A simple President/vice President would suffice

Was the rotating Presidency a compromise for that? Actually Christofias proposed the rotating presidency on weighted voting, so that both the Kibrislis and the Kypreoos TOGETHER elect a president.That would unify the Cypriots. Nothing to do with vetos...

25% Land = reduction from 37%

That would still leave about 80,000 GCs to be "forced" to live in the north state if they wished to do so without any political rights to vote within the north state or to run for any office, despite paying taxes in the north state or did I get this one wrong, which perhaps you and VP can correct me on this one. Also, what will be the size of the coastline of that 25%. If it is more than 25% of all of Cyprus, then expect a rejection from the GCs, unless something very creative can be worked out regarding Karpasia, short of being returned back to the GCs.

You are right they will be deprived of their voting rights for some positions.Certainly not for lower positions like muhtars etc.Now about the coastline it doesn't matter if it is under the Kibrisli Fed State. First of all because the state itself cannot use the coastline for building villas/hotels etc, (only marines and harbors). The real OWNERS of valuable land by the coastline will get their properties back. They might be Kypreos might be Kibrislis. So what's the problem?
Btw I know all the beaches in the northern part from childhood. Very very few deserve something.Very rough and rocky sea, a lot of north winds... Mainly that sea is good for fishing

North State = to be run by TCs.

Again, it implies that any GC living in the north cannot vote or be elected to any political position in the north state despite living and paying taxes there. Another clash with the EU Principles.

Economic support in the first years. = needed to level out the economic imbalance between the 2 states.

First few years could mean forever. Federal government will pay for most of the Federal projects in either states, usually 90% of the total cost, but the states themselves will also need to raise their part of the cash (10%) for the projects before the Federal governments pays their share. The north cannot expect the Federal government to pay for everything to bring the North's economy in line with the South's. That might never happen, since you can never have all the states at same economic level. Some states are going to be much more economically stronger than others, as they are in the USA. It is not the Federal Governments job to make sure both the states in Cyprus are on equal economic parity. It is up to each individual states to attract investments and create opportunities to their state from outside and from within. This is the same world over, just as there are economic differences withing different neighbourhoods within any given city in any given country.

Most of what you said are correct and yes the Kibrisli state should do what you said to catch up. However if you see my reply to VP I said the Federal government should also help for the first few years and i still hold that opinion. Why?
Because it is a FACT that the Northern part has been underdeveloped. Federal governments care for all their states and if a state needs some extra fuel that will help it DELIVER more and hence bring more INCOME to the Federal Government they should do that.This however needs to be done within the limits of the budget of the Fed Government. This happens everywhere in the world in Federal systems.

[Pyrpolizer]

...

[Viewpoint]

a)unitary State with Kibrislis on minority status

Our biggest fear you are pouring petrol on a fire, this is totally unacceptable, why the hell are you negotiation BBF clearly you do not support it.

b)All refugees back to their homes including the Kibrislis.

How is this physically possible? When homes have been destroyed or million dollar projects have been built on disputed land.

c)Turkey out of Cyprus and complete abolishing of the treaties of guarantees. Demilitarization of Cyprus

What will we replace it with? this was number 1 on my priority list if you want it abolished you have to come up with something to replace it and ask me to accept it.

d)all settlers be sent home

All? people who have been here 37 years, married a TC? had children here? will they go to Turkey as well?

You didn't understand what i said. Read it carefully

You always seem to talk in riddles can you be more precise.

[Pyrpolizer]

Btw when I said that financial support for the first few years is acceptable as a principle I did not mean that would be some sort of clause in the agreement that say 50% of the Federal funds go to the Kibrisli state for say 10 years. This cannot be done. It is upto the Federal Government to help any State catch up, and it will all depend on what priorities that Fed Government has. For example in the first few years there should be thousands of new homes built for people to relocate. Will there be any money left for developing of the Kibrisli weak state??? Under todays conditions the answer is not. Perhaps if we start extracting oil from the sea there will be surplus money, but then again it is the Federal Governments job/duty to distribute them according to the needs, and how she plans for the Country to flourish as a whole.And this job/duty has no time limits it is a permanent job.

[Viewpoint]

In my opinion this thread should be closed just as was the AP back in 2004. The understanding was a referendum for people to decide what they wanted we excercised our rights to say NO to something that was racists and anti greek Cypriot. If the TC's want unification then they better come up with a better plan.

So that you can keep reject them...how about you come up with a plan for us to consider and dont forget reserve the right to say NO.

[bill cobbett]

In my opinion this thread should be closed just as was the AP back in 2004. The understanding was a referendum for people to decide what they wanted we excercised our rights to say NO to something that was racists and anti greek Cypriot. If the TC's want unification then they better come up with a better plan.

So that you can keep reject them...how about you come up with a plan for us to consider and dont forget reserve the right to say NO.

Tic-Toc....Tic-Toc.....

[Viewpoint]

Hello dear Kikapu, nice to have some different views for a change
First of all I am not really referring to my personal views but to the views of the Kypreos leadership. They already agreed to BBF!Let's see the implications and how it can apply without violating basic human rights.

Effective say at all levels(No loop holes) = 50% minimum vote of TC MPS in upper house to get a bill through and referendum for any constitutional changes.

First of all, the above implies ONLY a TC can run for upper house senate seat in the north state. Already a clash with the EU Principles.
Not really. It just excludes the voting/election rights of the Kypreos in the Kibrisli state FOR SOME POSITIONS necessary to maintain the Bicommunality. These rights are NOT BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS, therefore they can get a pass in the EU.

Secondly, having ONLY TCs as senators from the north's upper house and requiring that minimum 50% of them must vote for a bill to pass, takes away the majority rule principles

In federations my friend the matter of majority rule is gone.Each federal State is equal even if the one has 10 million people and the other 1 million.

Thirdly, if it requires to have minimum 50% of senate vote to pass a bill from either state's upper house, then there is no need to have a Rotating Presidency as a compromise, since a veto can come from the 50% voting of the senators in the upper house. A simple President/vice President would suffice

Was the rotating Presidency a compromise for that? Actually Christofias proposed the rotating presidency on weighted voting, so that both the Kibrislis and the Kypreoos TOGETHER elect a president.That would unify the Cypriots. Nothing to do with vetos...

25% Land = reduction from 37%

That would still leave about 80,000 GCs to be "forced" to live in the north state if they wished to do so without any political rights to vote within the north state or to run for any office, despite paying taxes in the north state or did I get this one wrong, which perhaps you and VP can correct me on this one. Also, what will be the size of the coastline of that 25%. If it is more than 25% of all of Cyprus, then expect a rejection from the GCs, unless something very creative can be worked out regarding Karpasia, short of being returned back to the GCs.

You are right they will be deprived of their voting rights for some positions.Certainly not for lower positions like muhtars etc.Now about the coastline it doesn't matter if it is under the Kibrisli Fed State. First of all because the state itself cannot use the coastline for building villas/hotels etc, (only marines and harbors). The real OWNERS of valuable land by the coastline will get their properties back. They might be Kypreos might be Kibrislis. So what's the problem?
Btw I know all the beaches in the northern part from childhood. Very very few deserve something.Very rough and rocky sea, a lot of north winds... Mainly that sea is good for fishing

North State = to be run by TCs.

Again, it implies that any GC living in the north cannot vote or be elected to any political position in the north state despite living and paying taxes there. Another clash with the EU Principles.

Economic support in the first years. = needed to level out the economic imbalance between the 2 states.

First few years could mean forever. Federal government will pay for most of the Federal projects in either states, usually 90% of the total cost, but the states themselves will also need to raise their part of the cash (10%) for the projects before the Federal governments pays their share. The north cannot expect the Federal government to pay for everything to bring the North's economy in line with the South's. That might never happen, since you can never have all the states at same economic level. Some states are going to be much more economically stronger than others, as they are in the USA. It is not the Federal Governments job to make sure both the states in Cyprus are on equal economic parity. It is up to each individual states to attract investments and create opportunities to their state from outside and from within. This is the same world over, just as there are economic differences withing different neighbourhoods within any given city in any given country.

Most of what you said are correct and yes the Kibrisli state should do what you said to catch up. However if you see my reply to VP I said the Federal government should also help for the first few years and i still hold that opinion. Why?
Because it is a FACT that the Northern part has been underdeveloped. Federal governments care for all their states and if a state needs some extra fuel that will help it DELIVER more and hence bring more INCOME to the Federal Government they should do that.This however needs to be done within the limits of the budget of the Fed Government. This happens everywhere in the world in Federal systems.

Thank you Pyro for some level headed responses and telling Kikapu that he is nither god nor the messiah and that he doesnt know everything nor is he always right.

[Pyrpolizer]

a)unitary State with Kibrislis on minority status

Our biggest fear you are pouring petrol on a fire, this is totally unacceptable, why the hell are you negotiation BBF clearly you do not support it.

b)All refugees back to their homes including the Kibrislis.

How is this physically possible? When homes have been destroyed or million dollar projects have been built on disputed land.

c)Turkey out of Cyprus and complete abolishing of the treaties of guarantees. Demilitarization of Cyprus

What will we replace it with? this was number 1 on my priority list if you want it abolished you have to come up with something to replace it and ask me to accept it.

d)all settlers be sent home

All? people who have been here 37 years, married a TC? had children here? will they go to Turkey as well?

You didn't understand what i said. Read it carefully

You always seem to talk in riddles can you be more precise.

I am not talking in riddles. I told you what the Kypreos really want.That would make what they want 100%
Do you need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that they have dropped their "wants" to less than 50%?
Examine each one of their wants separately and you will see.
Let's take the first one: From a unitary state with the Kibrislis on minority status, the accepted BBF with POLITICAL EQUALITY.
If that is not a drop down by more than 50% then what is it?

Jesus don't tell me again you did not understand I will NOT reply.