Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Thank you, you have proved my point about how much power the federal structure will have over the states which you handed to the GCs on a plate. I rest my case.

It is becoming clearer and clearer from your posts that you are a taksimist, albeit slightly differentiated from the classic ones, in the sense that you would accept something near the classic partition.
Something like a very very lose confederation where there will be almost no relation between the confederal states, other than perhaps their common joining to the EU. You are not going to get such a thing. Not even if the lose confederal states were to be 18-82%. The best you can get is near TRUE FEDERATION, and because of the difficulty to reduce the area under Kibrisli administration far away from the present percentages you will get something about 25%. The Kypreos will not accept anything than equal rights (for both the Kypreos and the Kibrislis) on 100% of the area of Cyprus.

So make up your mind. Either stop rejecting everything we say in this forum regarding TRUE federations, or become a classic taksimist like your old friends Eric Dayi, and Zan so that we know what the hell you are upto.

"True Federation" is such a sweeping term has we have seen both sides have differing views on what it means and how it should be applied.....please explain to us what it means to you and how you see the TC role within your "True Federation".

Let's start from the basics. A true Fedration is when the Central Bank, matters of foreign affairs,, national security, natural resources, airspace and sea space, Nations Presidency, just to name a few belong exclusively to the Central Government.
From there and beyond the Federal States have local administration on all other matters like Police, education, Tax collection,Parliament etc but most of these are ALSO duplicated at Federal Level too, like we may have Federal Police, and Federal Parliament. In TRUE federation the laws of the Federal Government have higher hierarchy than the laws of the Fed States.

And of course because we are in the EU the laws of the EU are on top of everything

On people's level each citizen should has exactly the same rights and obligations as the other citizens of the particular state.The only difficulty for a BBF is that to maintain the bi-communality, the Kypreos living in the Kibrisli state should only cast their votes in their own Fed state.

There is no distinctive role of the Kibrislis or the Kypreos on a TRUE federation other than political equality at Federal level, which means an effective say for the Kibrisli Fed state, and running their local affairs by themselves.

What you have actually seen is not both sides having different views on what a true Federation is. What you 've seen is ONE side trying to pass a lose Confederation.... which is a totally different thing!!!

Ill ask the same question of you as well who can change the federal laws?

[Kikapu]

Thank you, you have proved my point about how much power the federal structure will have over the states which you handed to the GCs on a plate. I rest my case.

No, thank you, for proving to us that the Annan Plan was a racist, non Democratic, Human Rights violation, against International law and EU Principles which are the reasons why you loved it and who is against True Federation that will stop you from such racist practices. We should ALL thank the GCs for voting "OXI" on the AP for preventing Racists Fascists like VP from violating others Democratic and Human Rights by "raining on VP's AP parade". We rest our case!

No you appear to be confused about what we are discussing changing the goal posts to suit yourself, we are discussing how your plan left the door wide open to GC manipulation and total control of the whole island where as the AP didnt, thats why with the obvious mistrust and lack of commitment to a BBF from both sides should not move towards what we are discussing on another thread which is land for recognition the only real option we have left.

No, no, you are the one who is confused. Under True Federation much like the USA, there is no one group or community in charge of the Federal Government. The people of the USA are in charge of the Federal Government through their representatives in the congress and the senate, which will be the same in Cyprus. Larger state will have more lower house representatives but have equal number of representatives in the upper house as with the smaller state. But this is in the future, because in the beginning, ALL the Federal Laws will be worked out during the negotiations between the TCs and the GCs, just as they were during the AP talks, which you seemed to have agreed to that arrangement already, because you voted for the AP. Once ALL the details have been worked out and the Federal Constitution has been drafted, then it is the product of ALL Cypriots and not the GCs, so stop your childish propaganda by repeating the same rubbish about the GCs running the Federal Government. If you are too stupid to understand how the True Federation works, then say so, so that I won't ridicule you and make you look stupid at every turn, but the truth is, I believe you do understand how True Federation works and that you are just making propaganda, in which case, I will make you look stupid and ridicule you every time. Once the Federal Constitution has been drafted, then the two states can draft their own respected state constitutions, which will not and cannot supersede the Federal Constitution and guidelines. You can run your state in anyway you want as long as it does not violate any of the Federal Governments policies which ALL Cypriots have had already agreed to draft it as such. Is that so difficult for you to understand, so stop with your propaganda, because you will not get another AP type of offer? It cannot happen post 2004. That's the reality, so accept it or look like an idiot trying to convince others in trying otherwise.

As for an agreed partition for land, forget it, because Turkey will not agree to it, USA will not agree to it, the UK will not agree to it, the EU will not agree to it and neither will the RoC, which leaves just you few thousand fascists Neopartitionist, and in the scheme of things, you are nothing but a flea on a elephants ass. All you are are just a nuisance, that's all.

Who can change federal laws?

Donald Duck and Micky Mouse, who else?

What an idiotic question.

If any changes that may occur, it is to strengthen the Federal laws and not weaken them, (which should be music to the numerical minorities ears, because it will be for their advantage and not against) the citizens through their elected representatives do it. When it comes to the constitutional amendments, it will take overwhelming majority from both the states to vote for it. Go and read my plan again if you need some clarification.

[Viewpoint]

You refer to elected representatives, the important issue is what will the balance be and can the system be manipulated (eg your plan) to the advantage of either community?

[Pyrpolizer]

I am sorry to say but i agree with Kikapu your question was rather stupid.

There has ALREADY been an agreement for a BBF with POLITICAL EQUALITY (albeit not numerical). This means the Federal laws cannot change at Federal level neither by the Kypreos nor the Kibrislis. There must be majority for BOTH.

Btw aren't you hearing the news? There has been almost complete agreement on the matters of Government, Economy, and EU matters.
The talks stumbled upon 2 major issues a)PROPERTIES b)SECURITY
Also the matter of settlers has not been discussed- we have to wait until the UN monitored census both in the occupied and the RoC controlled areas.

So what you are actually worried about has ALREADY been AGREED.

[Viewpoint]

I am sorry to say but i agree with Kikapu your question was rather stupid.

There has ALREADY been an agreement for a BBF with POLITICAL EQUALITY (albeit not numerical). This means the Federal laws cannot change at Federal level neither by the Kypreos nor the Kibrislis. There must be majority for BOTH.

Btw aren't you hearing the news? There has been almost complete agreement on the matters of Government, Economy, and EU matters.
The talks stumbled upon 2 major issues a)PROPERTIES b)SECURITY
Also the matter of settlers has not been discussed- we have to wait until the UN monitored census both in the occupied and the RoC controlled areas.

So what you are actually worried about has ALREADY been AGREED.

When was this announced? could you provide links to support your claim as we are told that the current talks are in secret and nothing is agreed until everything is agree. Can you stop calling me stupid as I will respond with far worse insults and this will get us nowhere.

[Kikapu]

I am sorry to say but i agree with Kikapu your question was rather stupid.

There has ALREADY been an agreement for a BBF with POLITICAL EQUALITY (albeit not numerical). This means the Federal laws cannot change at Federal level neither by the Kypreos nor the Kibrislis. There must be majority for BOTH.

Btw aren't you hearing the news? There has been almost complete agreement on the matters of Government, Economy, and EU matters.
The talks stumbled upon 2 major issues a)PROPERTIES b)SECURITY
Also the matter of settlers has not been discussed- we have to wait until the UN monitored census both in the occupied and the RoC controlled areas.

So what you are actually worried about has ALREADY been AGREED.

When was this announced? could you provide links to support your claim as we are told that the current talks are in secret and nothing is agreed until everything is agree. Can you stop calling me stupid as I will respond with far worse insults and this will get us nowhere.

Pyro called your question to be stupid (correctly if I may add) and did not call you stupid.!

[Viewpoint]

I am sorry to say but i agree with Kikapu your question was rather stupid.

There has ALREADY been an agreement for a BBF with POLITICAL EQUALITY (albeit not numerical). This means the Federal laws cannot change at Federal level neither by the Kypreos nor the Kibrislis. There must be majority for BOTH.

Btw aren't you hearing the news? There has been almost complete agreement on the matters of Government, Economy, and EU matters.
The talks stumbled upon 2 major issues a)PROPERTIES b)SECURITY
Also the matter of settlers has not been discussed- we have to wait until the UN monitored census both in the occupied and the RoC controlled areas.

So what you are actually worried about has ALREADY been AGREED.

When was this announced? could you provide links to support your claim as we are told that the current talks are in secret and nothing is agreed until everything is agree. Can you stop calling me stupid as I will respond with far worse insults and this will get us nowhere.

Pyro called your question to be stupid (correctly if I may add) and did not call you stupid.!

Dont patronize me who asked the question.....all Im asking is that you both be civil.

[Kikapu]

I am sorry to say but i agree with Kikapu your question was rather stupid.

There has ALREADY been an agreement for a BBF with POLITICAL EQUALITY (albeit not numerical). This means the Federal laws cannot change at Federal level neither by the Kypreos nor the Kibrislis. There must be majority for BOTH.

Btw aren't you hearing the news? There has been almost complete agreement on the matters of Government, Economy, and EU matters.
The talks stumbled upon 2 major issues a)PROPERTIES b)SECURITY
Also the matter of settlers has not been discussed- we have to wait until the UN monitored census both in the occupied and the RoC controlled areas.

So what you are actually worried about has ALREADY been AGREED.

When was this announced? could you provide links to support your claim as we are told that the current talks are in secret and nothing is agreed until everything is agree. Can you stop calling me stupid as I will respond with far worse insults and this will get us nowhere.

Pyro called your question to be stupid (correctly if I may add) and did not call you stupid.!

Dont patronize me who asked the question.....all Im asking is that you both be civil.

Just trying to set the record straight, that's all.

Civility works both ways. Try to remember that.

[Pyrpolizer]

I am sorry to say but i agree with Kikapu your question was rather stupid.

There has ALREADY been an agreement for a BBF with POLITICAL EQUALITY (albeit not numerical). This means the Federal laws cannot change at Federal level neither by the Kypreos nor the Kibrislis. There must be majority for BOTH.

Btw aren't you hearing the news? There has been almost complete agreement on the matters of Government, Economy, and EU matters.
The talks stumbled upon 2 major issues a)PROPERTIES b)SECURITY
Also the matter of settlers has not been discussed- we have to wait until the UN monitored census both in the occupied and the RoC controlled areas.

So what you are actually worried about has ALREADY been AGREED.

When was this announced? could you provide links to support your claim as we are told that the current talks are in secret and nothing is agreed until everything is agree. Can you stop calling me stupid as I will respond with far worse insults and this will get us nowhere.

VP you cannot be participating to a political forum like the CF )for what 6 years now?) and not knowing how the political equality applies at Federal level.It's like a student graduating the 6th grade and asking questions to his classmates as to how much is 9+3. What do you think his classmates will say?

Anyway there has not been an OFFICIAL announcement as to which chapters they have agreed. Because that has to be made by the UN. But Christofias tells it all the time. Not the details, but he says there has been substantial progress on this, on that we are almost done, on the other total disagreement.

[Pyrpolizer]

Btw i made a mistake before, it is not on the chapter of GOVERNMENT that there has been almost complete agreement but on the chapter of POWER SHARING. still however your question as to who has the power to change Federal laws is within the latter.

On the chapter of Government things just stuck at where Talat left them. Eroglu just brings in lose confederal ideas, to the point that even Downer got pissed off.
Just for your information in a Confederation you will not get financial support (that you asked in the other topic). In confederations very very few things bind the nations together,it is like partition with some "cooperation". The kypreos will never accept such a thing.