Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

erolz, yes it is a fundamental part of democracies that majority has more power than minority. If you want to have a different system from democracy then let me know.

EU, is not a country, and therefore it can not be used as an example to support your argument.

So in your opinion what were the ideas and concpets that were and are used to determine how the EU operates then? Were /are they not a balance between and acceptance of both political equality at some levels and some relationship to numerical numbers in a democratic framework? Do they not seek to meet both the concerns that the numericaly smaller parties (countries in this case) are not subject to domaination of the larger parties whilst also recognising that total equality on all levels is also not fair or acceptable? Are these not exactly the same issues that you claim are black and white within Cyprus, but (according to you) totaly irrelevant and 'unusable' outside it?

The way the RoC was founded was not the best. This is why all these problems came. We should have never agreed. At least we got our lessons and we are not going to make the same mistake again.

You should never have agreed to it, knowing at the very time that you would not honour the agreements and that you would use it as means to an end to your real objectives, which it is my personal belief Markarios did do (and the TC negotiators did not do). I certainly agree with that.

Now, if you want RoC, you can come back and you will get everything according to what we agreed in 1960. I remind you that RoC is not a federation and is not many things that you demand today.

So you want RoC yes or no? RoC is everything that RoC is, you can not take only the parts that you like and forget about the parts that you don't.

If you mean, in a hypothecial situation (for magically returning to the 1960s could be nothing more than a hypothetical senarion - in the real world many many praticle difficulties now stand in the way) with the exact consitituion as it was in 1960 and before it was unilateraly 'ammended' - would that represent an acceptable settlement and basis for a united Cyprus I would say yes. With one condition. That condition would be that I believed that this time the GC administration would honour the spirit and the letter of the agreement and do everything in their power to try and make is sucseed and not see it as 'securing for GC an advanced bastion and impregnable stronghold' from which objectives that were against the very basis of the agreement could be secured. This condition would also need to hold true in my belief of the TC adminstration too, but to a lesser degree as they were lesser numricaly and lesser politicaly (even given the 'protections' in the agreement). If I belived this condition to be true (of the GC mainly and to a lesser extent the TC) then yes it would be a 'hypotheticaly' acceptable solution and basis for a united Cyprus for me.

[insan]

I don't know how much the TC private land is on entire Island and how much the TC state land should be. In Annan Plan, the GC refugees who would return back to their properties and live in TC constituent state had been taken into consideration and proposed %29 of the land to be administered by TC constituent state.

If the TCs population is 200.000 this means 40.000 refugees would return back to their properties and live under the TC constituent state... So if we reduce the number of the GC refugees who would return back to their properties; e.g 10.000, then TC administered constituent state land could be reduced to %22 or so...

So... it depends on how many GC refugees wish to return back to their properties and live in TC constituent state within the %20 of limitation with full political and human rights... Though the 5th version of the Annan Plan didn't give them full political rights...

[Piratis]

erolz, I don't know why you insist comparing EU with Cyprus. You are comparing oranges and apples.

The EU is an international organization of European countries formed after World War II to reduce trade barriers and increase cooperation among its members.
A good comparison would be not to take the EU, but to take any EU country. So take any EU country that you want to make your comparisons.

for magically returning to the 1960s could be nothing more than a hypothetical senarion - in the real world many many praticle difficulties now stand in the way

Everything is hypothetical. Returning to 1960 situation is not less real than accepting the Annan plan.

If the TCs population is 200.000 this means 40.000 refugees would return back to their properties and live under the TC constituent state... So if we reduce the number of the GC refugees who would return back to their properties; e.g 10.000, then TC administered constituent state land could be reduced to %22 or so...

I believe you got the numbers a bit messed up. One thing is "the number of GC that will return" and another thing "the number of GCs that will return under TC administration".

All refugees should have the option to return if they wish. By making the TC state smaller, more refugees would return under GC administration. This way less GCs will be under TC administration and TCs will be able to have a majority in their state without the need to refuse any of the refugees their right to return to their home.

[insan]

I believe you got the numbers a bit messed up. One thing is "the number of GC that will return" and another thing "the number of GCs that will return under TC administration".

So what's the mess with the numbers I've mentioned?

You telling me what I've told you with different words... You are so weird Piratis..

Don't misunderstand me but can you tell me what is your profession and education please?

I have a bachelor dgree of Marmara University, Communication Sciences, Radio-Tv and Cinema..

I have a 14 years of professional experience in journalism as a music reviewer and as a radio programme producer/presenter/manager/music director.[/quote]

[michalis5354]

I think we must re-write the constitutional terminologies here as to what is a Federation and what a Confederation is, and the difference between the two. Anyway there is google and there is button. THE FACT IS THERE IS NO ALIVE CONFEDERATION ON THIS PLANET TODAY.

Are there any alive unitary states? How many unitary states are alive? in respect of democracy , freedom , prosperity. I can see how many fail states are worldwide in respect of these factors.The fact that Belgium and swiss are there and are successful- or you disagree?- This is a very good framework to start!

Are you trying to tell us that the Federal State is the superior power in the Anan Plan? Are you trying to say that the Constituent States are under it and it is not just a 3rd autonomous state dealing only with some matters most of which it did not even given the means to apply on the constituent states?

I can not understand how the Central government is seen as a separate state! I did not say it is superior . Much authorities are exerised through the separate constituent states. This is not bad as you make it to be since it allows both constituent states to be more effective in their own administrative regions. This leaves also the Central govrnment more options and more freedom to deal with more serious issues of the united cyprus republic like Foreign policies Economic policies etc etc.

This is also the theory behind decantralisation that Insan has mentioned and he is 100% correct.

Well read this from page 24 of the Plan...

3. The federal government shall, as appropriate, entrust the implementation of its laws, including the collection of certain forms of taxes, to constituent state authorities.

... and explain to me how this "entrustment" will materialise and how that makes the Central State superior. (not by your personal assumptions but quoting me the provisions of the Plan.)Do you know the difference between the words "entrusting" and "enforcing"?

I think I have already explained above that much authorities are exercised through the individual constituent states and this can be good not bad! You seem not to trust the individual authorities of each constituent state and place a lot of assumptions.
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[insan]

Perhaps I should make some corrections on my last post to avoid misunderstandings though you know what we talk about here..

I don't know how much the TC private land is on entire Island and how much the TC state land should be. In Annan Plan, the max number of GC refugees who would return back to their properties in TC constituent state had been taken into consideration and proposed %29 of the land to be administered by TC constituent state.

If the TCs population is 200.000 this means max 40.000 refugees would return back to their properties in TC constituent state... So if we reduce the number of the GC refugees who would return back to their properties in TC constituent state; e.g 10.000, then TC administered constituent state land could be reduced to %22 or so...

So... it depends on how many GC refugees wish to return back to their properties in TC constituent state within the %20 of limitation with full political and human rights... Though the 5th version of the Annan Plan didn't give them full political rights...

[Piratis]

You telling me what I've told you with different words... You are so weird Piratis..

ok, in your last post you corrected it.

So we start with the 29% of the Annan plan. Assume all GC return to their homes with full human and political rights. If this number is too much for the TC state, then you should reduce the size of the TC state until you are satisfied with the percentage difference between TC and GC in the TC state.

What I mean is that if you think that GCs that would be under TC admin is too much, the way to solve it is not to limit the human rights of the GC, but to take a smaller percentage of land.

Also, the calculation of how many GCs will return should not be based on how many TCs exist. All GCs refugees should have the option to return if they wish.

If (theoretically speaking) half of those 200.000 TC leave to other EU countries, that doesn't mean that the number of GC that will return should be limited also to maintain the percentage difference.

can not understand how the Central government is seen as a separate state!

I believe he means that the British bases are the 3rd state.

[insan]

What I mean is that if you think that GCs that would be under TC admin is too much, the way to solve it is not to limit the human rights of the GC, but to take a smaller percentage of land.

The well known statusquoers think it is too much but %65 of the TCs have given the approval that it's not too much...

Also, the calculation of how many GCs will return should not be based on how many TCs exist. All GCs refugees should have the option to return if they wish.

Do you know that %89 of the private and state land of occupied areas belong to GCs according to 60s agreements and private deeds? If you put no restrictions for the refugees who would return to their properties in TC constituent state; this means no balance of the powers, no constituent states and no federation exists... So a properties exchange agreement is also needed to solve this problem...

If (theoretically speaking) half of those 200.000 TC leave to other EU countries, that doesn't mean that the number of GC that will return should be limited also to maintain the percentage difference.

No TCs leave their homeland if it suit their needs(Economical, democratical, security etc) The accepted ratio is about 1 TC/ 4GC ... This ratio, approx. always has been the same with some slight diversions... If we want a viable, stable, safe United Federation we have to keep that 1/4 ratio both for the whole Island and TCs constituent state(1 GC/ 4 TC)... Otherwise balanced, fair power sharing based on people of Cyprus never be possible...


Now what I hope is that the repatriation of at least 50.000 of settlers to open rooms at least 50.000 of TCs who are abroad...

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[Piratis]

Insan, first you say that 29% for the TC state is not a lot, and then you say that the TC/GC ratio in the TC state should be 4TC/1GC. If you keep both the 29% of land and such a low percentage of GC refugees returning this means a lot of refugees will not be able to return.

So you either need to decrease the percentage of land under the TC state, or at least increase the number of GCs that will be allowed to return under TC admin.

Personally I believe 29% is too much. A better arrangement would be about 24-25% of land and 2TC/1GC ratio in the TC state. This way almost all GC refugees can return (with full political rights) and you will have a big majority in your own state.

[insan]

Personally I believe 29% is too much. A better arrangement would be about 24-25% of land and 2TC/1GC ratio in the TC state. This way almost all GC refugees can return (with full political rights) and you will have a big majority in your own state.

So you made the TC private+state land about %16 ... As I said I don't know how much private and state land belong to TCs... So better to leave this issue to the ones that are knowledged about it...

Has Papadopulos or any people around him claimed, offered or told anything about how much private and state land legally belong to TCs and how much the TC administered area should be?

As far as I know Klerides and Denktash have agreed on %29 in 1987 if I'm not mistaken...