Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

First I would like to congratulate our friend Pyro in the way he has been debating the problems faced. Pyro has shown skill and gentlemanly behaviour towards all he has debated with. I wish all were of such good quality (debates). Needless to say that this also has been shown by his TC or in his words Kıbrıslı opponent (was it Erolz)?

Pyro, it seem from your post above, that you have objections to BBF; under the present situation on the ground how do you think the problem might be solved. I also have in mind what Bananiot is saying too. Can we or anyone seriously change what is happening on our beloved island. I tend to think of Bananiot being a pragmatist; no sensible person likes what is happening ESP with the settlers and the above mentioned 'Turkification' of our island

Regards

Denizaksulu

Oh you now made be blush my friend Deniz from Aksu.

Erolz3 is just a Kibrisli friend who's wavelength seems to match with mine. I believe he is more of a researcher of truth than an opponent in debates. I like him. I think he deserves more respect from some people in here.

Anyhow, I never hidden the fact that my number one preference for a solution is the return to the 1960 constitution AS WE ARE NOW and work things from there.This is an immediate solution, and removes all the negatives from the lives of the Kibrislis caused by their living isolated in an unrecognized state. It gives them direct flights, direct trade, and defacto civilian and mostly administrative control of the existing occupied area.
I understand that I am a tiny minority in this view, like some Kibrislis who hold the same view are. (e.g Sener Levent et al). You see for most Kibrislis that would equal return to pre- 1974 and an ANATHEMA. I believe they are wrong but then again i am just a little minority in this view.

So my next option is the BBF, which I support without having any fantacies of what it really is. However like I said above the BBF ranges from very mildly undemocratic without permanent derrogations to very very undemocratic with lots of permanent derrogations. I don't support just ANY eventual form of BBF i only support the first type.

There is also a problem with this BBF, because the leaders have never clarified from the very begining the extend to which there will be violations of human rights and derrogations from Aquis, and having not done that the negotiations are and will be never ending.

ANY SOLUTION be it BBF or my proposal to return back to the 1960 agreements will put an end to the Turkification of our island. From there on we could give incentives to the settlers to leave as well as incentives for the Kibrislis to come back to their homecountry,

So to summarize my proposals are:
Either Immediate return to 1960 contstitution and take it from there TOGETHER (Kypreos and KIbrislis) for a final solution
or
Clarify the BBF extend of derrogations on human rights and their time limit before any further discussions. If this is FINALIZED and AGREED we will have a solution 1 year after (at the maximum).

Thank you for making your position clear as to your preferences. I also concur. Also the ambiguities with ref. to the BBFs must be sorted as you mention. This bit is where I hate politicians. CONNIVING and/or AMBIGUOUS.

[bill cobbett]

First I would like to congratulate our friend Pyro in the way he has been debating the problems faced. Pyro has shown skill and gentlemanly behaviour towards all he has debated with. I wish all were of such good quality (debates). Needless to say that this also has been shown by his TC or in his words Kıbrıslı opponent (was it Erolz)?

Pyro, it seem from your post above, that you have objections to BBF; under the present situation on the ground how do you think the problem might be solved. I also have in mind what Bananiot is saying too. Can we or anyone seriously change what is happening on our beloved island. I tend to think of Bananiot being a pragmatist; no sensible person likes what is happening ESP with the settlers and the above mentioned 'Turkification' of our island

Regards

Denizaksulu

Oh you now made be blush my friend Deniz from Aksu.

Erolz3 is just a Kibrisli friend who's wavelength seems to match with mine. I believe he is more of a researcher of truth than an opponent in debates. I like him. I think he deserves more respect from some people in here.

Anyhow, I never hidden the fact that my number one preference for a solution is the return to the 1960 constitution AS WE ARE NOW and work things from there.This is an immediate solution, and removes all the negatives from the lives of the Kibrislis caused by their living isolated in an unrecognized state. It gives them direct flights, direct trade, and defacto civilian and mostly administrative control of the existing occupied area.
I understand that I am a tiny minority in this view, like some Kibrislis who hold the same view are. (e.g Sener Levent et al). You see for most Kibrislis that would equal return to pre- 1974 and an ANATHEMA. I believe they are wrong but then again i am just a little minority in this view.

So my next option is the BBF, which I support without having any fantacies of what it really is. However like I said above the BBF ranges from very mildly undemocratic without permanent derrogations to very very undemocratic with lots of permanent derrogations. I don't support just ANY eventual form of BBF i only support the first type.

There is also a problem with this BBF, because the leaders have never clarified from the very begining the extend to which there will be violations of human rights and derrogations from Aquis, and having not done that the negotiations are and will be never ending.

ANY SOLUTION be it BBF or my proposal to return back to the 1960 agreements will put an end to the Turkification of our island. From there on we could give incentives to the settlers to leave as well as incentives for the Kibrislis to come back to their homecountry,

So to summarize my proposals are:
Either Immediate return to 1960 contstitution and take it from there TOGETHER (Kypreos and KIbrislis) for a final solution
or
Clarify the BBF extend of derrogations on human rights and their time limit before any further discussions. If this is FINALIZED and AGREED we will have a solution 1 year after (at the maximum).

Pyr koumbaro... but there does seem to be a way that a good many elements, perhaps even all the major ones, could be incorporated in to a BBF, without denying anyones's human rights, in theory and in practise.

It's a massive subject area have been looking at for a few days, with some very weighty research.

You may care to look at what is grandly called ... Rights Based Post-Conflict Resolution. You'll find that CY may not have to re-invent the wheel on this one, as the work has been done in Bosnia (with 10x the number of refugees as in CY) and in Kosovo.

Briefly for now... it's a rights based approach where every HR of every one is is acknowledged and incorporated in a settlement, whether it's right to property, right to home, right to free movement etc etc... cos and here's the point that researchers have reported, in practise the number of people who will wish to return (say) is very limited, but in theory and within a constitution, they have a right to return, if they wish.

May just be an approach that manages to square the BBF/CY circle.

[kurupetos]

What a load of b*llocks!

[Pyrpolizer]

First I would like to congratulate our friend Pyro in the way he has been debating the problems faced. Pyro has shown skill and gentlemanly behaviour towards all he has debated with. I wish all were of such good quality (debates). Needless to say that this also has been shown by his TC or in his words Kıbrıslı opponent (was it Erolz)?

Pyro, it seem from your post above, that you have objections to BBF; under the present situation on the ground how do you think the problem might be solved. I also have in mind what Bananiot is saying too. Can we or anyone seriously change what is happening on our beloved island. I tend to think of Bananiot being a pragmatist; no sensible person likes what is happening ESP with the settlers and the above mentioned 'Turkification' of our island

Regards

Denizaksulu

Oh you now made be blush my friend Deniz from Aksu.

Erolz3 is just a Kibrisli friend who's wavelength seems to match with mine. I believe he is more of a researcher of truth than an opponent in debates. I like him. I think he deserves more respect from some people in here.

Anyhow, I never hidden the fact that my number one preference for a solution is the return to the 1960 constitution AS WE ARE NOW and work things from there.This is an immediate solution, and removes all the negatives from the lives of the Kibrislis caused by their living isolated in an unrecognized state. It gives them direct flights, direct trade, and defacto civilian and mostly administrative control of the existing occupied area.
I understand that I am a tiny minority in this view, like some Kibrislis who hold the same view are. (e.g Sener Levent et al). You see for most Kibrislis that would equal return to pre- 1974 and an ANATHEMA. I believe they are wrong but then again i am just a little minority in this view.

So my next option is the BBF, which I support without having any fantacies of what it really is. However like I said above the BBF ranges from very mildly undemocratic without permanent derrogations to very very undemocratic with lots of permanent derrogations. I don't support just ANY eventual form of BBF i only support the first type.

There is also a problem with this BBF, because the leaders have never clarified from the very begining the extend to which there will be violations of human rights and derrogations from Aquis, and having not done that the negotiations are and will be never ending.

ANY SOLUTION be it BBF or my proposal to return back to the 1960 agreements will put an end to the Turkification of our island. From there on we could give incentives to the settlers to leave as well as incentives for the Kibrislis to come back to their homecountry,

So to summarize my proposals are:
Either Immediate return to 1960 contstitution and take it from there TOGETHER (Kypreos and KIbrislis) for a final solution
or
Clarify the BBF extend of derrogations on human rights and their time limit before any further discussions. If this is FINALIZED and AGREED we will have a solution 1 year after (at the maximum).

Pyr koumbaro... but there does seem to be a way that a good many elements, perhaps even all the major ones, could be incorporated in to a BBF, without denying anyones's human rights, in theory and in practise.

It's a massive subject area have been looking at for a few days, with some very weighty research.

You may care to look at what is grandly called ... Rights Based Post-Conflict Resolution. You'll find that CY may not have to re-invent the wheel on this one, as the work has been done in Bosnia (with 10x the number of refugees as in CY) and in Kosovo.

Briefly for now... it's a rights based approach where every HR of every one is is acknowledged and incorporated in a settlement, whether it's right to property, right to home, right to free movement etc etc... cos and here's the point that researchers have reported, in practise the number of people who will wish to return (say) is very limited, but in theory and within a constitution, they have a right to return, if they wish.

May just be an approach that manages to square the BBF/CY circle.

I partly agree with you on the red colored part Billy Koumbare.
This is what I meant when I said that the population is very unlikely to be re-distributed.
So do you think we can reach an agreement that the constitution will allow it but will never occur in practice? Yes we can if the other side shows good will. But do they?They don't. The other side wants it written and guaranteed in the agreement with fixed percentages!! they are not willing to take the REASONABLE RISK.

Furthermore there are cases that the risk cannot be taken because of factual reasons. Just the other day VP said that if 20%+ Kypreos return and they have the human right to vote, then they could steal one of their 5 members at the Upper house of the Federal Parliament!

So either we like it or not there must be some restrictions on human rights to have a BBF solution. It all depends how serious those restrictions will be, and for those that might need non permanent derogation what will be their duration.
Let me give you another example.The Kibrislis say that if after a solution the Kypreos Banks would be allowed to operate in the other Fed part, then they will close down all the Kibrisli Banks. So they need some time to adjust. I don't know if this argument is valid or not, but if it it valid then here comes another (non permanent thank God) derogation.


Now I had something to say about the green part but.... i got lost

[halil]

“RİSK KOPMA DEĞİL, DETAYDA BOĞULMA” RISK BREAKING NOT CHOKING detail "
http://www.yeniduzen.com/detay.asp?a=31071&z=21


20-30 yıldır bu görüşmeler devam ediyor...........
20-30 years, these negotiations continue.

Bizim bir 20-30 yılımız daha yok çok daha az bir zamanımız var...........
we have no 20-30 years more, we have less time.

Herşey her zaman değişiyor...................
Everything is always changing.

Kıbrıs’ta da birçok şey değişiyor.........
Also many things are changing in Cyprus.

Hayat devam ediyor...............
Life goes on.

Ve zaman geçtikçe Kıbrıs sorununu çözmek için görüşmek de zorlaşıyor.....
and when the time passes to discuss the Cyprus problem gets harder.

Kıbrıs 1974’de bölündü............
Cyprus was divided in 1974 .

30 yıl geçti............
30 years have passed.

Bu çok uzun bir zaman...........
This is a very long time.

Downer’ın Kıbrıs görüşmelerinde bir nevi sağ kolu şeklinde de değerlendirilen asistanı Sonja Bachmann’ın görev süresinin dolayısıyla NewYork’a çağrılmasını da değerlendiren Downer......bunun doğal bir süreç olduğuna işaret ederek, kendi kontratının da 13 Temmuz’da yenileneceğini ifade ediyor.


Downer talk about her asistan Sonja's call back to Newyork.........it is a natural process, pointing out that his own contract will renewed on July 13 .


13 Temmuz’da kontratımın yenileceğini düşünüyorum. Tabii ki. Ama tabii ki kimse hiçbir şeyi sonsuza kadar yapamaz. Sadece kendim için konuşmuyorum, bütün Birleşmiş Milletler misyonu için de bu böyle. Biz zamanımızı ve enerjimizi bu görüşmelere harcamaktan mutluyuz. Ama eğer bir anlaşma olmayacaksa, tabii ki başka bir düzenleme yapılabilir

He is thinking that his contract will be renewed on 13rd july.of course nobody can do anything forever. I just do not speak for myself, all the way to the United Nations mission. We are happy to spend our time and energy to these negotiations. But if you will not have a deal,
of course, other arrangements can be made ............


................................. Downer hoping he will continue with his job....if there will be no agreement ....ofcourse there will be other arrangments..............

[halil]

ULUSLARARASI KONFERANS SÜRECİN SONUNDA
http://www.yeniduzen.com/detay.asp?a=31071&z=21

INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE AT THE END OF THE PROCESS.


Sürecin dışarıdan gelecek uluslar arası bir ivmeyle hızlandırılıp hızlandırılamayacağını da soruyorum, Downer’a.

I am asking to Downer'' If process can be speed up by international actors....

Bunu cevaplamak kolay değil..............
It is not easy to answer this.

Kesin bir noktadan konuşamıyorsunuz. .........
u can not speak from certain point.

Bu sürecin sonunda uluslararası konuları tartışmak için muhtemelen bir uluslararası konferans yapılacak. ............
At the end of this process it is probably an international conference would be to discuss international issues.

Bu bir ilerleme kazandırabilir..........
This might help to progress.

Tabii burada Türkiye ve Yunanistan’ın bulunması gerekiyor. ...........
Of course, in here Turkey and Greece must be found.

Ama bu sürecin gerçekten sonunda gerçekleşebilecek bir şey. .............
But this will happen at end of this process .

Ancak bunun dışında dışarıdan süreci etkileyebilecek bir gelişme yaşanıp yaşanmayacağını da bilemiyoruz..............

but apart from that what may affect the development process from the outside do not knowing that if there will be.

Bundan sonra kesin olarak ne olacağını söylemek zor” diyor............
It is very difficult to say very clear what will happen.....


one of my friends used to say ''yarrak by the number'' for these kind of the answers and unknowns............. My good friend Mustafa Garagözlü...

[Pyrpolizer]

“RİSK KOPMA DEĞİL, DETAYDA BOĞULMA” RISK BREAKING NOT CHOKING detail "
http://www.yeniduzen.com/detay.asp?a=31071&z=21


20-30 yıldır bu görüşmeler devam ediyor...........
20-30 years, these negotiations continue.

Bizim bir 20-30 yılımız daha yok çok daha az bir zamanımız var...........
we have no 20-30 years more, we have less time.

Herşey her zaman değişiyor...................
Everything is always changing.

Kıbrıs’ta da birçok şey değişiyor.........
Also many things are changing in Cyprus.

Hayat devam ediyor...............
Life goes on.

Ve zaman geçtikçe Kıbrıs sorununu çözmek için görüşmek de zorlaşıyor.....
and when the time passes to discuss the Cyprus problem gets harder.

Kıbrıs 1974’de bölündü............
Cyprus was divided in 1974 .

30 yıl geçti............
30 years have passed.

Bu çok uzun bir zaman...........
This is a very long time.

Downer’ın Kıbrıs görüşmelerinde bir nevi sağ kolu şeklinde de değerlendirilen asistanı Sonja Bachmann’ın görev süresinin dolayısıyla NewYork’a çağrılmasını da değerlendiren Downer......bunun doğal bir süreç olduğuna işaret ederek, kendi kontratının da 13 Temmuz’da yenileneceğini ifade ediyor.


Downer talk about her asistan Sonja's call back to Newyork.........it is a natural process, pointing out that his own contract will renewed on July 13 .


13 Temmuz’da kontratımın yenileceğini düşünüyorum. Tabii ki. Ama tabii ki kimse hiçbir şeyi sonsuza kadar yapamaz. Sadece kendim için konuşmuyorum, bütün Birleşmiş Milletler misyonu için de bu böyle. Biz zamanımızı ve enerjimizi bu görüşmelere harcamaktan mutluyuz. Ama eğer bir anlaşma olmayacaksa, tabii ki başka bir düzenleme yapılabilir

He is thinking that his contract will be renewed on 13rd july.of course nobody can do anything forever. I just do not speak for myself, all the way to the United Nations mission. We are happy to spend our time and energy to these negotiations. But if you will not have a deal,
of course, other arrangements can be made ............


................................. Downer hoping he will continue with his job....if there will be no agreement ....ofcourse there will be other arrangments..............

Halil do you think ANYONE can enforce any arrangement on you, or on us? Do you think for example the UN or the EU or The Americans could order Turkey to leave Cyprus?

What is it exactly that you expect from these other "arrangements"?

Imo nothing will happen. By the minute the UN cannot impose their own resolutions there is nothing they can do.

[Pyrpolizer]

Oh now I remembered what I had to say about the green part.
The most essential element of BBF is the fact that the Kypreos cannot be more than 50% of the Kibrislis in their Fed state. The other side demanded that percentage to be even much lower, remember the Anan Plan set it down to 10%!!!
By setting quota you automatically have violations of human rights. (And you cannot avoid setting quotas if you are talking for BBF)
If the percentage is say 40% then you have to add another violation of human rights, you have to remove them the right to vote i.e. Otherwise the bicommunality issue goes away.

Now would the Kibrislis ever accept a solution where there won't be any mention of quotas on residency or voting taking the risk that they are very unlikely to happen? I simply don't know.
The very agreement however for a BBF gives them the right to ask for such.

[Pyrpolizer]

ULUSLARARASI KONFERANS SÜRECİN SONUNDA
http://www.yeniduzen.com/detay.asp?a=31071&z=21

INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE AT THE END OF THE PROCESS.


Sürecin dışarıdan gelecek uluslar arası bir ivmeyle hızlandırılıp hızlandırılamayacağını da soruyorum, Downer’a.

I am asking to Downer'' If process can be speed up by international actors....

Bunu cevaplamak kolay değil..............
It is not easy to answer this.

Kesin bir noktadan konuşamıyorsunuz. .........
u can not speak from certain point.

Bu sürecin sonunda uluslararası konuları tartışmak için muhtemelen bir uluslararası konferans yapılacak. ............
At the end of this process it is probably an international conference would be to discuss international issues.

Bu bir ilerleme kazandırabilir..........
This might help to progress.

Tabii burada Türkiye ve Yunanistan’ın bulunması gerekiyor. ...........
Of course, in here Turkey and Greece must be found.

Ama bu sürecin gerçekten sonunda gerçekleşebilecek bir şey. .............
But this will happen at end of this process .

Ancak bunun dışında dışarıdan süreci etkileyebilecek bir gelişme yaşanıp yaşanmayacağını da bilemiyoruz..............

but apart from that what may affect the development process from the outside do not knowing that if there will be.

Bundan sonra kesin olarak ne olacağını söylemek zor” diyor............
It is very difficult to say very clear what will happen.....


one of my friends used to say ''yarrak by the number'' for these kind of the answers and unknowns............. My good friend Mustafa Garagözlü...

What do you expect the man to tell you halil. He simply doesn't know. He is just working for the UN. If you want I will tell you what the UN will do.

They will issue an announcement saying:
"We offered our good will services to the 2 sides in Cyprus for a very long time. We are convinced that a settlement to the Cyprus problem based on negotiations is currently impossible for reasons that we don't want to say. Until we receive evidence on the contrary we withdraw our good will services".

Of course they will ell the reasons to those who matter be it the Americans, the British, the Russians etc. And everybody will know about them including Ankara and your Eroglus.

[Kikapu]

What the BBF would have looked like in the late 70's is much different than what BBF would look like today, specially since Cyprus became an EU member in 2004. This is the reality that the "trnc" (Turkey, NeoPartitionist) is having a hard time in accepting. The Annan Plan in 2004 would have brought back the late 70's version of the BBF, if ONLY the 76% of the GCs did not vote OXI to it. That's why the AP will always be "the one that got away" for the NeoPartitionist and friends.!